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I'm just curious how this works.

I don't start until late summer or early fall, so I don't really know anyone to ask. I also didn't summer at the firm I'm going to. The firm is a smaller more regional AmLaw 150 firm. One of the reasons I chose it is I wouldn't have to deal with astronomical billing rates. Much more reasonable at this firm imo. And in the interview they did say they encourage younger associates to develop business, and even 1st yrs.

Patent law group (not a boutique).



I currently have at least 1 definite client, and possibly a few others I've been working with as a patent agent. So how does it work? Do I have to surrender control of everything to the partner in charge? Or, like, is the partner going to want to review everything I do? If he reviews something I draft for example, then can I cut his hours? That seems like it would be an uncomfortable thing to do. Would the partner even know I cut his hours (could I be the "billing attorney"?)

I am a little hesitant to bring them on if the firm is going to try to jack up huge astronomical fees on them, as BigLaw loves to do. I'm worried the clients would get a bit of a sticker shock when they saw what not only my 1st year billing rate is, but then some partner at $500/hour also on the bill. If they couldn't handle it and didn't want to work with the firm, I would be nervous that this would made me look bad.

Basically I'm just not sure how the logistics of billing your clients works in Biglaw. I've been working for these clients for an amount of time from months to years, but my own billing rates are a good bit lower than BigLaw, even at the regional firm I'm going to.

Generally anyone have any advice or insight?

Thanks


edit: I also have not at all mentioned them to the firm during interviews or anything like that. So it wasn't a consideration in my hiring or anything.

I would disclose the billing rates and practices to the potential clients, invite them to use the services of your firm, and let them make the decision.

I think you are making this much more complicated than it actually should be.

petepilsh wrote:I would disclose the billing rates and practices to the potential clients, invite them to use the services of your firm, and let them make the decision.

I think you are making this much more complicated than it actually should be.

lol. At my firm there's no way you can give a pitch or anything like that as a first year, or represent anything about rates or services the firm could provide. They have to do a preliminary conflicts check and a bunch of other paperwork. Once you start working there, you represent the firm itself, not just yourself. If you fall on your face for whatever reason, the whole firm loses access to that potential business, not just you.

OP - Just chill out. If it's a really good lead, which it sounds like yours is, you can discuss it with the appropriate people when you're doing orientation. You'll presumably get some cash as credit for originating the business. If it's normal big law, a partner is going to run the show.

How much business are we talking about here? If you're talking about 1-2 apps a year, your firm probably won't bother taking them on because of potential conflicts issues. Most patent prosecution is on some sort of fixed fee arrangement at law firms. You should have an idea of what the rates are at your firm and whether your prospective clients would be willing to pay it.

Here's how it worked when I brought in clients at my v50:

(1) I had to do a conflict check. Invariably some former client somewhere had a conflict. I had to e-mail the lawyer responsible for each conflict and clear it. Since they weren't making money off my client, they didn't have much incentive to get back to me or help me out at all, and since I was just bringing in small work (i.e. not WalMart), the firm didn't feel the need to spend time helping me clear conflicts or asking other lawyers in the firm to be reasonable and let the minuscule business conflict with a company that hadn't used the firm for 15 years slide.

(2) The firm didn't give you any origination bonus until your client spent at least $50,000 annually on legal fees. All the clients I brought in were successful small businesses. Their owners were millionaires. Still, $50,000 is a lot of legal fees for one year, and I never hit it with any one client.

(3) No partners wanted you to bring in the matters, and they were reluctant to help out on the file. They'd ask if ABC Mart was really worth it for the firm -- "think about the potential conflicts this client might cause if they get in a dispute with a real big paying client!" they'd say. Also, because they weren't getting origination, they didn't think there was ongoing work, and they probably feared the client wouldn't pay, they really turned up their nose when I'd ask if they could give me direction.

Eventually I started sending the work to friends at 2-3 person firms, and accepting the referral bonuses from my friends.

Anonymous User wrote:Here's how it worked when I brought in clients at my v50:

(1) I had to do a conflict check. Invariably some former client somewhere had a conflict. I had to e-mail the lawyer responsible for each conflict and clear it. Since they weren't making money off my client, they didn't have much incentive to get back to me or help me out at all, and since I was just bringing in small work (i.e. not WalMart), the firm didn't feel the need to spend time helping me clear conflicts or asking other lawyers in the firm to be reasonable and let the minuscule business conflict with a company that hadn't used the firm for 15 years slide.

(2) The firm didn't give you any origination bonus until your client spent at least $50,000 annually on legal fees. All the clients I brought in were successful small businesses. Their owners were millionaires. Still, $50,000 is a lot of legal fees for one year, and I never hit it with any one client.

(3) No partners wanted you to bring in the matters, and they were reluctant to help out on the file. They'd ask if ABC Mart was really worth it for the firm -- "think about the potential conflicts this client might cause if they get in a dispute with a real big paying client!" they'd say. Also, because they weren't getting origination, they didn't think there was ongoing work, and they probably feared the client wouldn't pay, they really turned up their nose when I'd ask if they could give me direction.

Eventually I started sending the work to friends at 2-3 person firms, and accepting the referral bonuses from my friends.

Yep. Also trying to get a partner to meet the deadline he gave my client for his part of the work was complete hell. I will never bring in a client again.

This sort of thing is highly firm dependent, particularly when you're talking about small regional firms. OP: You really should talk to a partner at your firm about your relationship with potential clients. Be humble.

Anonymous User wrote:Here's how it worked when I brought in clients at my v50:

(1) I had to do a conflict check. Invariably some former client somewhere had a conflict. I had to e-mail the lawyer responsible for each conflict and clear it. Since they weren't making money off my client, they didn't have much incentive to get back to me or help me out at all, and since I was just bringing in small work (i.e. not WalMart), the firm didn't feel the need to spend time helping me clear conflicts or asking other lawyers in the firm to be reasonable and let the minuscule business conflict with a company that hadn't used the firm for 15 years slide.

(2) The firm didn't give you any origination bonus until your client spent at least $50,000 annually on legal fees. All the clients I brought in were successful small businesses. Their owners were millionaires. Still, $50,000 is a lot of legal fees for one year, and I never hit it with any one client.

(3) No partners wanted you to bring in the matters, and they were reluctant to help out on the file. They'd ask if ABC Mart was really worth it for the firm -- "think about the potential conflicts this client might cause if they get in a dispute with a real big paying client!" they'd say. Also, because they weren't getting origination, they didn't think there was ongoing work, and they probably feared the client wouldn't pay, they really turned up their nose when I'd ask if they could give me direction.

Eventually I started sending the work to friends at 2-3 person firms, and accepting the referral bonuses from my friends.

This doesn't sound so bad.

I believe my firm only wants a minimum of something like $10k, at least as stated in the policy I've seen. And I am aware of their fee splitting policy. Like I said, they did tell me they do like to see even juniors doing BizDev.

The way you make it sound though, it sounds like you'd be fairly free to run the client yourself? That would work and honestly be preferable to me.

In my case, the clients I have now could probably pay my new rates. But, if they were forced to deal with a partner and also pay tons of $ at the partner's rates, they probably wouldn't be willing to do it. Think small businesses/reasonably successful startups. Frankly, with at least the one I the strongest relationship with, having to give up the point position in the relationship to a partner may be a dealbreaker for the client. Not positive though.

rpupkin wrote:This sort of thing is highly firm dependent, particularly when you're talking about small regional firms. OP: You really should talk to a partner at your firm about your relationship with potential clients. Be humble.

One consideration for me in figuring out what I want to do this before I start in the fall is, I am currently attorney of record on various apps and shit. If I don't get moving on bringing them into the firm, I assume I need to get them transitioned to a new attorney. And once I've done that, I think my chances of getting them back a little while later would be slim, unless they ended up hating the new atty.

Given that I haven't started yet and have only really just interviewed and chatted with the partner for maybe 1 hour total, it seems more than just a bit awkward to discuss this.. Not really sure what to do here. I think the firm lets me keep like 30% of all fees, so I mean, it would not be a trivial increase on my paycheck over market salary. And I also feel it'd be good to hang onto these guys as a career move. And also would definitely be nice to still have them in my pocket in case I go solo in a few years.

Any advice given these maybe atypical considerations?

Maybe I'm missing something but if you are going to be a first year how have you been working with them for months to years?

Wait you've never practiced law and you think you want to service your own clients while partners are hands off?

Magic Hat wrote:Maybe I'm missing something but if you are going to be a first year how have you been working with them for months to years?

He was a patent agent.

DELG wrote:Wait you've never practiced law and you think you want to service your own clients while partners are hands off?

things are a little different for patent pros

I was thinking of this too as a few of my childhood friends became fairly wealthy, but wealthy means a few million dollars. You need people who will spend at least a few hundred thousand on legal services, and the reality is that almost no individuals require big law assistance. I'd also feel bad taking 10% of a friend's net worth, especially given how much of a money dump we all know big law is for clients. You really need to get clients who start a corporation which hires your firm so the shareholders foot the bill, and not your friend.

I was thinking of this too as a few of my childhood friends became fairly wealthy, but wealthy means a few million dollars. You need people who will spend at least a few hundred thousand on legal services, and the reality is that almost no individuals require big law assistance. I'd also feel bad taking 10% of a friend's net worth, especially given how much of a money dump we all know big law is for clients. You really need to get clients who start a corporation which hires your firm so the shareholders foot the bill, and not your friend.

Abbie Doobie wrote:

DELG wrote:Wait you've never practiced law and you think you want to service your own clients while partners are hands off?

things are a little different for patent pros

Correct, I have been practicing for some time now.

Anonymous User wrote:I was thinking of this too as a few of my childhood friends became fairly wealthy, but wealthy means a few million dollars. You need people who will spend at least a few hundred thousand on legal services, and the reality is that almost no individuals require big law assistance. I'd also feel bad taking 10% of a friend's net worth, especially given how much of a money dump we all know big law is for clients. You really need to get clients who start a corporation which hires your firm so the shareholders foot the bill, and not your friend.

OP here

I feel you on that one.

In my case, however, my clients have all been established LLCs

Also I don't think at least at my firm it needs to be hundreds of thousands of $. I mean, if I had hundreds of thousands of $ of business already, I sure as hell wouldn't be splitting it 3 ways with some lawfirm. One of the papers they sent me was their firm policy on origination and, at least according to that paper, they only want a minimum of $10k. Subject to conflicts obvs

I know basically nothing about patent work but I have heard lawyers complain that most prosecution work these days is subject to a capped fee. Does your new firm do prosecution work? Do they accept these alleged capped fees?

Magic Hat wrote:I know basically nothing about patent work but I have heard lawyers complain that most prosecution work these days is subject to a capped fee. Does your new firm do prosecution work? Do they accept these alleged capped fees?

OP here:

Dunno but I'd be surprised if they don't have alternative fee arrangements. Flat fee doesn't mean all applications are equal though. Anything to make the costs lower is a positive to me. High rates = impossible to market yourself

Regardless, doesn't really change anything. I'm really more concerned with the logistics of who exactly bills out to clients, and who ultimately has "control" over various things.

Some generous firms ITT. My firm forces you to give all origination + future credit to another partner, associate gets nothing ever.

Anonymous User wrote:Some generous firms ITT. My firm forces you to give all origination + future credit to another partner, associate gets nothing ever.

possibly, one sort of firm hopes you will make partner and have a book of business to contribute to the firm, whereas others don't give a fuck whether you stick around longterm or not?

Speculation

Whoa big law sounds like it stinks. ~20 person shop and we keep 30% of whatever we bring in. $35k originated billables you're eligible to become junior partner which is a title for marketing purposes at least. And then 100k is equity partner. That's why it makes sense to bring in your own clients in addition to doing work for the partners.

Anonymous User wrote:Whoa big law sounds like it stinks. ~20 person shop and we keep 30% of whatever we bring in. $35k originated billables you're eligible to become junior partner which is a title for marketing purposes at least. And then 100k is equity partner. That's why it makes sense to bring in your own clients in addition to doing work for the partners.

i know a few small ip firms in the DMV area that let you keep 40% + decent base salary

Anonymous User wrote:

Magic Hat wrote:I know basically nothing about patent work but I have heard lawyers complain that most prosecution work these days is subject to a capped fee. Does your new firm do prosecution work? Do they accept these alleged capped fees?

OP here:

Dunno but I'd be surprised if they don't have alternative fee arrangements. Flat fee doesn't mean all applications are equal though. Anything to make the costs lower is a positive to me. High rates = impossible to market yourself

Regardless, doesn't really change anything. I'm really more concerned with the logistics of who exactly bills out to clients, and who ultimately has "control" over various things.

High fees actually make marketing easier. I know it sounds counterintuitive but cheap clients are not good clients. Once I stopped marketing as an affordable alternative and started charging market to above market rates, I doubled my client base. When people need something done they don't want to cheap out.

For reference I am an associate in a 100 attorney, 3 office mid law firm and I have originations of 200k+

You gotta run any new clients through the procedure your firm uses (conflicts check, etc.). A partner can help you with this, and it should be straightforward. Been through this process, too.

And even if you don't get an origination bonus, it is good for your reputation.

Magic Hat wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Magic Hat wrote:I know basically nothing about patent work but I have heard lawyers complain that most prosecution work these days is subject to a capped fee. Does your new firm do prosecution work? Do they accept these alleged capped fees?

OP here:

Dunno but I'd be surprised if they don't have alternative fee arrangements. Flat fee doesn't mean all applications are equal though. Anything to make the costs lower is a positive to me. High rates = impossible to market yourself

Regardless, doesn't really change anything. I'm really more concerned with the logistics of who exactly bills out to clients, and who ultimately has "control" over various things.

High fees actually make marketing easier. I know it sounds counterintuitive but cheap clients are not good clients. Once I stopped marketing as an affordable alternative and started charging market to above market rates, I doubled my client base. When people need something done they don't want to cheap out.

For reference I am an associate in a 100 attorney, 3 office mid law firm and I have originations of 200k+

To answer the rest of your questions - it will vary from firm to firm. As a first year it might be tough though. I figure as a well regarded second year or third year you would be able to have control. As a first year though they just don't know you or your work product. If you fuck up it's the firm that gets sued.

A good partner would allow you to control the bill while still being the billing attorney.

Origination fees at a big firm should be around 10-15 percent, if they are given at all.