Advice on Salary- Small Firm Forum

[dotbun]

Deleted.

[mvp99]

Not basing this on anything really but it seems like you could ask for it. How much are you billing to clients in dollars? I think your salary should be 1/4 or 1/3 of that. And why are you doing admin stuff? you should get someone $7.25 to do that shit. Your time is better spent billing clients.

Also the profit sharing sounds bs unless they explicitly said you had to bring in clients.. I hate when people make empty promises, it happens so often its not funny

edit: let you know i don't know what I'm talking about

[dotbun]

Not basing this on anything really but it seems like you could ask for it. How much are you billing to clients in dollars? I think your salary should be 1/4 or 1/3 of that. And why are you doing admin stuff? you should get someone $7.25 to do that shit. Your time is better spent billing clients.

Also the profit sharing sounds bs unless they explicitly said you had to bring in clients.. I hate when people make empty promises, it happens so often its not funny

edit: let you know i don't know what I'm talking about

[General_Tso]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that one partner is retiring. It's not like you are going to step into a founding partner's shoes the day he retires. If anything that's bad for you because the firm revenue may suffer or the other partner may close up and move to another firm.

[dotbun]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that one partner is retiring. It's not like you are going to step into a founding partner's shoes the day he retires. If anything that's bad for you because the firm revenue may suffer or the other partner may close up and move to another firm.

[barkschool]

start applying elsewhere

[A. Nony Mouse]

Is $65k really low for a two-partner firm?

[dotbun]

Is $65k really low for a two-partner firm?

[Anonymous User]

start applying elsewhere

Agree with this. These two are going to leave you high and dry in 6-12 months. No long term future at this job. Forget about a raise and focus on leaving.

[mvp99]

start applying elsewhere

Agree with this. These two are going to leave you high and dry in 6-12 months. No long term future at this job. Forget about a raise and focus on leaving.

+1

6 hours a day with 2 partners? what happens when theres one? You'll find something better. Good luck.

[dotbun]

I guess I was afraid that everyone would say to find another job (a part of me knows that this is what I should do). I really love all the learning I'm doing and I'm worried I won't find that at another firm. I work normal hours and I get along great with both partners. Decisions, decisions...

[barkschool]

I guess I was afraid that everyone would say to find another job (a part of me knows that this is what I should do). I really love all the learning I'm doing and I'm worried I won't find that at another firm. I work normal hours and I get along great with both partners. Decisions, decisions...

Are you the one pulling the clients?

[dotbun]

I guess I was afraid that everyone would say to find another job (a part of me knows that this is what I should do). I really love all the learning I'm doing and I'm worried I won't find that at another firm. I work normal hours and I get along great with both partners. Decisions, decisions...

Are you the one pulling the clients?

What do you mean by "pulling"? I'm the contact person for all the clients. The partners only talk to clients when they have to. They've been working off of referrals since 1980. I recently created a website for the firm and I've been contacted by clients that way where I've set up fee agreements and started their work.

[General_Tso]

Assuming you ask for a raise and go up to say, $80k. What next? How long do you seriously see yourself at this firm?

[kcdc1]

I'd be cautious about pushing aggressively for a raise so soon after your pay bump for passing the bar. I obviously don't know your situation, but in your OP, you said you negotiated on salary, they increased their offer, and you accepted presumably knowing what to expect. Then your bar results came in, and they followed through on their promise to increase your pay.

That said, I think it makes sense for you to start posturing to ask for a raise. Keep track of what you're doing and the value you're bringing to the table - particularly the non-administrative tasks that they couldn't hire a paralegal to handle (because you want to be paid more than a paralegal). Ask how you're performing, and what skills and responsibilities you need to develop in order to continue to advance your career at the firm. Then, you pick your spot (year-end review perhaps?) and make your case for a raise.

When you do ask for a raise, I'd focus on your value-add at your firm. Know what you'd be able to get on the open market, but don't lead with that information (1) because it's needlessly adversarial, and (2) it may be less effective if they would have otherwise been inclined to bump your pay because they like you. Remember, you picked this firm in part for non-financial reasons -- this firm doesn't necessary have to match the dollar figure of the highest bidder in order to be the best option for you. And they're entitled to offer you less than you might get elsewhere knowing that they offer other advantages.

Also, delete the confidential information from your OP.

[whatsyourdeal]

Just my two cents, OP, but I think you shouldn't ask for the salary increase until your year hits (assuming you started in March as a clerk, and was elevated to associate in November/December), which seems to be next March. My reasoning for this is because you just had your bump in salary, and though you are tackling extra paralegal/admin duties, that should be cause for the firm to hire a paralegal/admin, and not increase your pay. You could definitely alert the partners that it would be cheaper to give you an increase ($65k to $90k) instead of hiring a full time secretary altogether ($30-45k), but would you really want to tack on that kind of extra work for the gain? It might be worth it, it might not be, depending on what you are doing - that's a judgment call by you. Personally, I'd lean toward requesting for a new paralegal/secretary so I could focus on the associate work and get the most out of it.

With respect to whether you should leave this firm soon, I would ride it out at least for a year (as an associate, which puts it around December 2016). Even if you did want to leave right now, it seems like you just received your license to practice. You would only have about 10 months of experience there - 9 as a law clerk, and 1 month as an associate; your experience might suggest that a firm would have to retrain you to their style, which requires more time and is costlier than hiring another new grad. If you wait to rack up more experience as an attorney, at least you have some substantive skills to offer. Also, if you were to apply right now, my guess is that your options would most likely be other small firms due to your limited experience - you might get lucky and land a few interviews at a mid-size firm. Seems like you will be getting great substantive experience (in addition to crappy admin duties) at this firm. With no debt, housing or financial problems, and only 25 to boot, there doesn't seem to be much harm in riding this thing for another year to rack up experience.

[smallfirmassociate]

You negotiated the salary, so that's what you get. Not sure why you're expecting a raise just because you realized your worth to the firm. I mean, logically that makes sense, especially to millennials, but that's not how business works. You and the firm agreed on the price of your labor, and while you certainly are within your rights to ask for a raise, I don't see the logic for it and don't imagine it gaining any traction with boomers / older folks. You basically negotiated, got what you bargained for, and are now upset because you know the other side's reserve price. Tough shit.

You fundamentally have a question right now of whether you want to be a solo practitioner / run your own firm. You have two partners and no succession plan. I don't see any reason why they would give half a shit what happens to the firm when they are gone, as they certainly wouldn't wait until the precipice of retirement to bring on an associate if they truly cared about the firm's future. The circumstances suggest that they are going to retire and leave you with whatever you want to make of the likely scattered remnants of the firm.

They're basically using you as an admin / associate / jack of all trades. I question whether either one of them intends, or has ever intended, to hire an admin at any point in the future. But all is not lost. You're getting experience that may be valuable, you're meeting clients, and you're practicing law as far as your resume is concerned. Those are good things.

You can stay there, try to build relationships with the clients, and plan to try to run this firm or a similar branch-off practice (for when they hire a new associate next year that just so happens to be one of the partner's nephews and it no longer looks like you're the successor...) in the future, or you can cut bait and find a new job. But you shouldn't approach this position as any kind of long-term, stable small firm position. And you sure shouldn't sign any non-compete agreements or the like.

[dotbun]

Thank you everyone for your input. It's been really helpful. I don't see the firm folding any time soon, but it could be less profitable upon the partner's retirement. I'm probably going to keep an eye on job postings, since my practice area is pretty hard to come by, and then apply only if it's a good fit.

In the meantime, I'll keep track of what I'm bringing to the table and see what happens in a few months. I don't want to seem too pushy with salary, since it's important to stay on good terms with the partners being that I work with them daily. I'm in a good financial situation right now, so I'm in no rush. I don't think another firm can beat the experience that I'm currently getting.

[General_Tso]

Why are you so enamored with this niche field if jobs are "pretty hard to come by"?

Also the whole "paid in experience" bit is a fallacy. There are a lot of jobs that offer both quality experience and good pay.

[Anonymous User]

instead of hiring a full time secretary altogether ($30-45k)

Experienced legal secretaries in the Bay Area make far more than 30-45k. My firm is struggling to find an experienced, reliable secretary in the 75-80k range. Let that sink in OP - your current job pays you less than a legal secretary. And you are spending 10 hours a week doing secretary work. Wake up and move on to something better.

[General_Tso]

^ was me, accidental use of anon

[dotbun]

Why are you so enamored with this niche field if jobs are "pretty hard to come by"?

Also the whole "paid in experience" bit is a fallacy. There are a lot of jobs that offer both quality experience and good pay.

There are only a handful of firms in San Francisco that do this type of work. I'm good at it and I really like it. These type of firms aren't the type that do recruiting, so I'd have to literally walk into their offices and hand them my resume. The bad part is that if I did reach out to those firms, most/all of them personally know my bosses.

[whatsyourdeal]

instead of hiring a full time secretary altogether ($30-45k)

Experienced legal secretaries in the Bay Area make far more than 30-45k. My firm is struggling to find an experienced, reliable secretary in the 75-80k range. Let that sink in OP - your current job pays you less than a legal secretary. And you are spending 10 hours a week doing secretary work. Wake up and move on to something better.

Yes, experienced legal secretaries do make significantly more in the Bay Area; I am aware that even for small non-boutique firms, they could command anywhere from 60k and up, and for boutiques, big firms, and corporations, that number is likely a little shy of 100k. But OP is not and would not be an experienced legal secretary, and just guessing, but OPs firm would probably not spend the money to hire an experienced legal secretary.

Only reason I am pointing this out is to provide the added caveat that, yes, your current job pays you less than an experienced legal secretary, but keep in mind that's after 5-10 years' experience. Hopefully, after 5-10 years as an attorney, you will command more than 75-80k. So its probably not wise to ask for a raise (partially) based on an argument that experienced legal secretaries make more.

[kcdc1]

I would recommend deleting your posts in this thread now that you have your answers. There is identifiable information here that you probably don't want sitting on Google for eternity.