Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Desert Fox]

I seem to recall you being all about biglaw, the money and "models and bottles" back when you were in school. Was reality different than you expected?

No you remembered wrong, maybe got me mixed up with someone else, I was always posting. I know I was going to start in biglaw, but I had a different perspective of what you can get out of it. And I got what I want out of it (training, experience, prestige).

Sorry. It was a long time ago. I know there used to be a big "models and bottles" pro the money in biglaw group of posters, but that was years ago.

I was def models and bottles. Now is damages models and bottles of pesto bismal.

[Lexaholik]

With the benefit of hindsight I would say that (1) I was incredibly unhappy as a biglaw associate yet (2) it was pretty middle of the road as far as private industry jobs. The value of the money I was able to save balanced out the misery. I've had other jobs where I was almost as miserable but was paid far less.

There are two types of biglaw associates. The first is naturally suited to the job. You know immediately if you fit into this category. The second category is for the rest of us. It's just not a good fit, and you struggle to keep your head above the water. Maybe you pull it off for a while by making a ton of personal sacrifices, or maybe you plain suck. I definitely, obviously fell into the second category.

I worked for two years at a Fortune 500 company pre-law, did a clerkship, worked for medium sized firm, and now run a solo practice. So I'd like to think I have some perspective. I'm tempted to say biglaw was the worst job I've ever had--especially if you asked me while I was working there. But now I sort of have a different perspective on jobs. Every job has a set of pros and cons. Depending on what your goals are, you may choose jobs with a particular mix of pros and cons. Biglaw offers you relatively secure high-compensation employment. There is virtually no other legal job that offers you the same set of characteristics. You can make more as a solo, but you have less security. You have a safer job in the government, but you get paid less.

It's easy, especially when you're working in biglaw, to say that it's a terrible job and feel like you're wasting your time making yourself miserable. But when you work at other jobs, you will realize that the money you earned (and hopefully saved) is not likely available anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

I worked for two years at a Fortune 500 company pre-law, did a clerkship, worked for medium sized firm, and now run a solo practice. So I'd like to think I have some perspective. I'm tempted to say biglaw was the worst job I've ever had--especially if you asked me while I was working there. But now I sort of have a different perspective on jobs. Every job has a set of pros and cons. Depending on what your goals are, you may choose jobs with a particular mix of pros and cons. Biglaw offers you relatively secure high-compensation employment. There is virtually no other legal job that offers you the same set of characteristics. You can make more as a solo, but you have less security. You have a safer job in the government, but you get paid less.

Could you please elaborate as to why it's worse than midlaw and Fortune 500?

[Lexaholik]

I worked for two years at a Fortune 500 company pre-law, did a clerkship, worked for medium sized firm, and now run a solo practice. So I'd like to think I have some perspective. I'm tempted to say biglaw was the worst job I've ever had--especially if you asked me while I was working there. But now I sort of have a different perspective on jobs. Every job has a set of pros and cons. Depending on what your goals are, you may choose jobs with a particular mix of pros and cons. Biglaw offers you relatively secure high-compensation employment. There is virtually no other legal job that offers you the same set of characteristics. You can make more as a solo, but you have less security. You have a safer job in the government, but you get paid less.

Could you please elaborate as to why it's worse than midlaw and Fortune 500?

Because unlike the other jobs, in biglaw you're expected to be responsive 24x7. Nobody ever says you have to, but everyone else is super responsive to e-mails. So as a result you have to be as well, which means you have no downtime to relax by yourself. Some people can pull it off and ignore the blinking red blackberry light, but I was never able to.

You are also required to have an insane attention to detail. Maybe I'm just bad at it so it bothered me more. But it really sucks when you produce near perfect work product but then it's somehow "not good enough" because you missed a couple errors. Midlaw/Fortune 500 never had this standard.

[Anonymous User]

I worked for two years at a Fortune 500 company pre-law, did a clerkship, worked for medium sized firm, and now run a solo practice. So I'd like to think I have some perspective. I'm tempted to say biglaw was the worst job I've ever had--especially if you asked me while I was working there. But now I sort of have a different perspective on jobs. Every job has a set of pros and cons. Depending on what your goals are, you may choose jobs with a particular mix of pros and cons. Biglaw offers you relatively secure high-compensation employment. There is virtually no other legal job that offers you the same set of characteristics. You can make more as a solo, but you have less security. You have a safer job in the government, but you get paid less.

Could you please elaborate as to why it's worse than midlaw and Fortune 500?

Because unlike the other jobs, in biglaw you're expected to be responsive 24x7. Nobody ever says you have to, but everyone else is super responsive to e-mails. So as a result you have to be as well, which means you have no downtime to relax by yourself. Some people can pull it off and ignore the blinking red blackberry light, but I was never able to.

You are also required to have an insane attention to detail. Maybe I'm just bad at it so it bothered me more. But it really sucks when you produce near perfect work product but then it's somehow "not good enough" because you missed a couple errors. Midlaw/Fortune 500 never had this standard.

Ok, thank you! I've only been in biglaw (not the others) so am glad there are better jobs out there. I was beginning to think most law jobs are like biglaw.

[Lexaholik]

I worked for two years at a Fortune 500 company pre-law, did a clerkship, worked for medium sized firm, and now run a solo practice. So I'd like to think I have some perspective. I'm tempted to say biglaw was the worst job I've ever had--especially if you asked me while I was working there. But now I sort of have a different perspective on jobs. Every job has a set of pros and cons. Depending on what your goals are, you may choose jobs with a particular mix of pros and cons. Biglaw offers you relatively secure high-compensation employment. There is virtually no other legal job that offers you the same set of characteristics. You can make more as a solo, but you have less security. You have a safer job in the government, but you get paid less.

Could you please elaborate as to why it's worse than midlaw and Fortune 500?

Because unlike the other jobs, in biglaw you're expected to be responsive 24x7. Nobody ever says you have to, but everyone else is super responsive to e-mails. So as a result you have to be as well, which means you have no downtime to relax by yourself. Some people can pull it off and ignore the blinking red blackberry light, but I was never able to.

You are also required to have an insane attention to detail. Maybe I'm just bad at it so it bothered me more. But it really sucks when you produce near perfect work product but then it's somehow "not good enough" because you missed a couple errors. Midlaw/Fortune 500 never had this standard.

Ok, thank you! I've only been in biglaw (not the others) so am glad there are better jobs out there. I was beginning to think most law jobs are like biglaw.

No prob! I should note though that the other jobs may have other significant downsides. For example, biglaw was less political, even if it wasn't a 100% meritocracy.

[zot1]

I worked for two years at a Fortune 500 company pre-law, did a clerkship, worked for medium sized firm, and now run a solo practice. So I'd like to think I have some perspective. I'm tempted to say biglaw was the worst job I've ever had--especially if you asked me while I was working there. But now I sort of have a different perspective on jobs. Every job has a set of pros and cons. Depending on what your goals are, you may choose jobs with a particular mix of pros and cons. Biglaw offers you relatively secure high-compensation employment. There is virtually no other legal job that offers you the same set of characteristics. You can make more as a solo, but you have less security. You have a safer job in the government, but you get paid less.

Could you please elaborate as to why it's worse than midlaw and Fortune 500?

Because unlike the other jobs, in biglaw you're expected to be responsive 24x7. Nobody ever says you have to, but everyone else is super responsive to e-mails. So as a result you have to be as well, which means you have no downtime to relax by yourself. Some people can pull it off and ignore the blinking red blackberry light, but I was never able to.

You are also required to have an insane attention to detail. Maybe I'm just bad at it so it bothered me more. But it really sucks when you produce near perfect work product but then it's somehow "not good enough" because you missed a couple errors. Midlaw/Fortune 500 never had this standard.

Ok, thank you! I've only been in biglaw (not the others) so am glad there are better jobs out there. I was beginning to think most law jobs are like biglaw.

Uh... Government is nothing like BigLaw.

[cheesycake2000]

Hey guys, 0L but I have an observation.

So I'm a hodgepodge of typical lawyer traits, maybe in a somewhat atypical combination. Immigrant striver, well off parents (not like, own a dry cleaner well off either) and I would've been K-JD if not for the internet. About halfway through college I came upon things like this thread and Way Worse than Being a Dentist, freaked out, and tried a few different things after failing to get a job in IB (was in the running but hardly on the cusp of it). Long story short, a couple years pass and I decide rather than just chillin with people all day while working bullshit jobs, I should reconsider law (in the meantime I researched a multitude of careers and had friends who went on to become various things that I hear about). So I took a job as a para at a midlaw New York firm (I'm a local). I figured it'd be a great way to make decent cash (without mooching off my parents like I've been doing up until then to supplement my meager odd jobs) and the obscurity of the firm (NLJ 350 or whatever that listing is called but certainly not V100) would mean I'd have a pretty easy life.

Granted, I wound up working more than I wanted to (I suppose I could've skated by with close to 40 hours per week considering I'm not trying to make a career of this and getting fired wouldn't be a big deal, but I was curious what lawyer hours would be like). I feel like what I see in no way matches what I read.

First, I heard there are no good midlaw jobs. That's plainly not true. The firm has a variety of work, including on cases big enough that the average person would have heard of them in the news. Our partners charge in the 600-800 range, so I feel like it's not a nickel and dime type of shop. The only people with good degrees we have are either BIgLaw refugees (pretty much all people who came with the promise of being made partner) or people in their 80s, from back when all firms were smaller and this one was apparently white shoe and elite.

It's clearly gone downhill in terms of prestige as our last three decades of hires are from places I did not realize had law schools, including (just as a sampling) the biggest joke of a school in all of Brooklyn, some place in Atlanta that I don't think even qualifies as a TTT and those who went to better places are mostly Brooklyn Law, Cardozo, NYLS and other similar places. Our associates, as far as I can tell, start at between 110 and 135k a year somewhere but I was unable to narrow it down more precisely.

It really doesn't seem that bad. As a paralegal I get work that's too insubstantial for young attorneys and do plenty of tasks which a normal person could justly describe as boring and repetitive (yet involving enough brainpower and attention to detail that you can't tune out, even if not enough to be challenging). Still, I don't really mind the work. From our time entry system I know our stated goal is 1800, stated bonus is 2000 but realistically it's 2200 to stay not fired and 2400+ to be considered worthwhile. Our office looks like shit (I've been to fancier firms for interviews so I know the difference), although it's finally getting redone. But here are some prominent things I'm beginning to wonder are myths:

Constant 90-100 hour workweeks. Nobody at my place works this much ON AVERAGE. Yes, there are tough times (sometimes for a couple of months at a time) but I'd be surprised if the average was above 65 even considering those. Whenever I leave past 9pm it's usually a small minority of people in the office, and since I maintain peoples' schedules and do their time entries I know roughly how much they work. Some people work from home after dinner, but they tend to be the ones who leave earlier like 6-7.

Extreme up or out. Lots of people at the firm are associates who have been there for over a decade. Many make counsel (few make partner) but even associates make good money compared to the average American. Hell, they significantly beat the average Manhattan residents from what I know.

People being terrible. Most people I work with are normal people. The types of people I see in a law firm aren't that different from the type of people I met in college. Sure, there are some screamers but I am puzzled as to how people could find them threatening. Maybe it's that I grew up in a third world shithole (prior to my parents being well off), but it's just people yelling at you. How bad can it be? Most of the time it doesn't even mean there's anything wrong with you, some people just handle stress that way. A lot of people (and, surprisingly, a higher percentage among partners and even higher among rainmakers than among the firm as a whole) are genuinely nice people. Granted, less so in litigation than in any other practice area I've seen.

The work being soul crushing. The only way I could see this being true is if you've lived one of those lives where your parents spend your entire childhood doting on you to make sure little Tyler feels fully self actualized and non threatened at all times. It's really no different from other office jobs I've had for me and for attorneys (especially more senior ones) actually looks interesting. To be fair, I thrive under stressful conditions so I can see how someone who hates being under pressure would find this job unbearable, because there genuinely is (even at my lowly level) pressure to get perfect work product out yesterday.

No time to do anything. Granted a 40 hour workweek would be better, but people have lives. People date and get married. I don't think divorce is any more prevalent than in New York as a whole. Granted, spending time with kids is tough, that one I'll give you, but I think Americans place too much of an emphasis on constantly hovering over their kids anyway. Lot of people I grew up with mainly saw their dad on the weekend. Anyway, people seem to have lives. They go for drinks with friends, to restaurants, to sporting events, some run marathons, some do martial arts (not Tiger Schulman's either, I've seen the fight videos - they're pretty sick), some just get wasted several nights a week and go to clubs. Basically, generally normal lives from the outside. Also the job seems pretty flexible. If it's slow, nobody is going to fault you for going to a dentist appointment midday, a perk which is unimaginable at your typical blue collar job.


I don't know guys, did I stumble on some sort of unicorn? Prior to working here I wasn't going to go to law school unless I got into a T14 on a good scholarship and even then I was preemptively planning going in house (sidenote: litigators seem to have just as easy a time going in house as corporate, plenty of people have left into in house positions and people give me puzzled looks when I bring up corporate having an advantage) and/or killing myself through decades of drinking.

Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad. And 110k starting (160k and bonus at a good firm!) might not mean much to you (for some reason) but I get the feeling you lack perspective. I grew up in a place where you got your water from a well and sunglasses were high tech enough for people to gawk at. Then my family's wealth went into the 8 figures so while my dad may not be Elon Musk I've gotten to experience a better life than most in material terms. I drove a German car in college and all that good stuff. 110k is still a lot.

The biggest flame of all seems to be the constant "grass is greener". Teachers I know constantly joke (nervously) about being poor. I know some people who are really happy with union jobs (which do pay great per hour and have amazing perks, provided you can get them) but they're mostly pretty dumb and unambitious. Also I know enough mechanics and other union workers from growing up in my old neighborhood that I know the sort of environment they work in is (in social terms) boring as hell for someone like me. There's more to life than worldstar videos and fart jokes. Like discussing an interesting book you read. Nurses seem to work just as hard as lawyers but in way shittier conditions and generally make less. Doctors don't make nearly as much as reputed unless they're either brilliant and in a top specialty or commit massive billing fraud. Salesman is a very unstable line of work. Marketing pays shitty on most levels and is only enjoyable for a very special kind of douchebag. Bizdev guys work nonstop and mostly make less than lawyers do. Software engineering would be a great job if you're into that sort of thing, but I just find programming incredibly boring (it's lucrative enough by reputation that I tried my hand at it as a double major and in my spare time but found it unbearable). Frankly, I'm on the outside looking in but the software engineers I know don't seem that happy. Financiers (especially buy side) do make a lot more money than lawyers at the same age, but in my experience their hours are also significantly worse and (much like in law) there's no guarantee, to put it mildly, of getting to the level where you're pulling in serious cash and their work environment seems worse from what I can tell. Startups are cool as hell, but I don't have the talent or personality for that and very few of them make money, and from what I can see the lifestyle sucks.

I'm not saying I'd rather do law than sit around all day smoking weed and playing video games then going out at night with my buddies. If my parents were worth in the 9 figures rather than 8 and if they raised me like a trust fund baby (like some people I know) I definitely wouldn't be doing this. But they're from humble backgrounds and are low key (if you saw where they live or what they drive you would not assume they're wealthy, although they've spoiled me and my siblings growing up), so they made it clear to me that 1) I'm not getting anything past college 2) if I want an inheritance one day, I better be successful in my own rite, as there's no point in giving your hard earned money to a slacker so he can waste it. I think both are fair points although obviously I'd prefer if they just showered me in cash forever lol.

Anyway, I'm probably going to go into law despite everything I've read. Go ahead and tell me I'm delusional, privileged, a douchebag or whatever else, but I'd rather believe my own lying eyes than random malcontents on the internet. To be honest, I have a hard time picturing the lawyers I met who are happy and successful coming to a place like this to talk about how awesome law is (also, let's face it, if it wasn't for the money nobody would do this, but it's hardly the only job you can say that for), but I can picture every single kind of bitter loser congregating on the internet warning that nobody could possible succeed because they failed.

The only point of this post is to share one person's observations, biased though they may be.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Hey guys, 0L but I have an observation.

So I'm a hodgepodge of typical lawyer traits, maybe in a somewhat atypical combination. Immigrant striver, well off parents (not like, own a dry cleaner well off either) and I would've been K-JD if not for the internet. About halfway through college I came upon things like this thread and Way Worse than Being a Dentist, freaked out, and tried a few different things after failing to get a job in IB (was in the running but hardly on the cusp of it). Long story short, a couple years pass and I decide rather than just chillin with people all day while working bullshit jobs, I should reconsider law (in the meantime I researched a multitude of careers and had friends who went on to become various things that I hear about). So I took a job as a para at a midlaw New York firm (I'm a local). I figured it'd be a great way to make decent cash (without mooching off my parents like I've been doing up until then to supplement my meager odd jobs) and the obscurity of the firm (NLJ 350 or whatever that listing is called but certainly not V100) would mean I'd have a pretty easy life.

Granted, I wound up working more than I wanted to (I suppose I could've skated by with close to 40 hours per week considering I'm not trying to make a career of this and getting fired wouldn't be a big deal, but I was curious what lawyer hours would be like). I feel like what I see in no way matches what I read.

First, I heard there are no good midlaw jobs. That's plainly not true. The firm has a variety of work, including on cases big enough that the average person would have heard of them in the news. Our partners charge in the 600-800 range, so I feel like it's not a nickel and dime type of shop. The only people with good degrees we have are either BIgLaw refugees (pretty much all people who came with the promise of being made partner) or people in their 80s, from back when all firms were smaller and this one was apparently white shoe and elite.

It's clearly gone downhill in terms of prestige as our last three decades of hires are from places I did not realize had law schools, including (just as a sampling) the biggest joke of a school in all of Brooklyn, some place in Atlanta that I don't think even qualifies as a TTT and those who went to better places are mostly Brooklyn Law, Cardozo, NYLS and other similar places. Our associates, as far as I can tell, start at between 110 and 135k a year somewhere but I was unable to narrow it down more precisely.

It really doesn't seem that bad. As a paralegal I get work that's too insubstantial for young attorneys and do plenty of tasks which a normal person could justly describe as boring and repetitive (yet involving enough brainpower and attention to detail that you can't tune out, even if not enough to be challenging). Still, I don't really mind the work. From our time entry system I know our stated goal is 1800, stated bonus is 2000 but realistically it's 2200 to stay not fired and 2400+ to be considered worthwhile. Our office looks like shit (I've been to fancier firms for interviews so I know the difference), although it's finally getting redone. But here are some prominent things I'm beginning to wonder are myths:

Constant 90-100 hour workweeks. Nobody at my place works this much ON AVERAGE. Yes, there are tough times (sometimes for a couple of months at a time) but I'd be surprised if the average was above 65 even considering those. Whenever I leave past 9pm it's usually a small minority of people in the office, and since I maintain peoples' schedules and do their time entries I know roughly how much they work. Some people work from home after dinner, but they tend to be the ones who leave earlier like 6-7.

Extreme up or out. Lots of people at the firm are associates who have been there for over a decade. Many make counsel (few make partner) but even associates make good money compared to the average American. Hell, they significantly beat the average Manhattan residents from what I know.

People being terrible. Most people I work with are normal people. The types of people I see in a law firm aren't that different from the type of people I met in college. Sure, there are some screamers but I am puzzled as to how people could find them threatening. Maybe it's that I grew up in a third world shithole (prior to my parents being well off), but it's just people yelling at you. How bad can it be? Most of the time it doesn't even mean there's anything wrong with you, some people just handle stress that way. A lot of people (and, surprisingly, a higher percentage among partners and even higher among rainmakers than among the firm as a whole) are genuinely nice people. Granted, less so in litigation than in any other practice area I've seen.

The work being soul crushing. The only way I could see this being true is if you've lived one of those lives where your parents spend your entire childhood doting on you to make sure little Tyler feels fully self actualized and non threatened at all times. It's really no different from other office jobs I've had for me and for attorneys (especially more senior ones) actually looks interesting. To be fair, I thrive under stressful conditions so I can see how someone who hates being under pressure would find this job unbearable, because there genuinely is (even at my lowly level) pressure to get perfect work product out yesterday.

No time to do anything. Granted a 40 hour workweek would be better, but people have lives. People date and get married. I don't think divorce is any more prevalent than in New York as a whole. Granted, spending time with kids is tough, that one I'll give you, but I think Americans place too much of an emphasis on constantly hovering over their kids anyway. Lot of people I grew up with mainly saw their dad on the weekend. Anyway, people seem to have lives. They go for drinks with friends, to restaurants, to sporting events, some run marathons, some do martial arts (not Tiger Schulman's either, I've seen the fight videos - they're pretty sick), some just get wasted several nights a week and go to clubs. Basically, generally normal lives from the outside. Also the job seems pretty flexible. If it's slow, nobody is going to fault you for going to a dentist appointment midday, a perk which is unimaginable at your typical blue collar job.


I don't know guys, did I stumble on some sort of unicorn? Prior to working here I wasn't going to go to law school unless I got into a T14 on a good scholarship and even then I was preemptively planning going in house (sidenote: litigators seem to have just as easy a time going in house as corporate, plenty of people have left into in house positions and people give me puzzled looks when I bring up corporate having an advantage) and/or killing myself through decades of drinking.

Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad. And 110k starting (160k and bonus at a good firm!) might not mean much to you (for some reason) but I get the feeling you lack perspective. I grew up in a place where you got your water from a well and sunglasses were high tech enough for people to gawk at. Then my family's wealth went into the 8 figures so while my dad may not be Elon Musk I've gotten to experience a better life than most in material terms. I drove a German car in college and all that good stuff. 110k is still a lot.

The biggest flame of all seems to be the constant "grass is greener". Teachers I know constantly joke (nervously) about being poor. I know some people who are really happy with union jobs (which do pay great per hour and have amazing perks, provided you can get them) but they're mostly pretty dumb and unambitious. Also I know enough mechanics and other union workers from growing up in my old neighborhood that I know the sort of environment they work in is (in social terms) boring as hell for someone like me. There's more to life than worldstar videos and fart jokes. Like discussing an interesting book you read. Nurses seem to work just as hard as lawyers but in way shittier conditions and generally make less. Doctors don't make nearly as much as reputed unless they're either brilliant and in a top specialty or commit massive billing fraud. Salesman is a very unstable line of work. Marketing pays shitty on most levels and is only enjoyable for a very special kind of douchebag. Bizdev guys work nonstop and mostly make less than lawyers do. Software engineering would be a great job if you're into that sort of thing, but I just find programming incredibly boring (it's lucrative enough by reputation that I tried my hand at it as a double major and in my spare time but found it unbearable). Frankly, I'm on the outside looking in but the software engineers I know don't seem that happy. Financiers (especially buy side) do make a lot more money than lawyers at the same age, but in my experience their hours are also significantly worse and (much like in law) there's no guarantee, to put it mildly, of getting to the level where you're pulling in serious cash and their work environment seems worse from what I can tell. Startups are cool as hell, but I don't have the talent or personality for that and very few of them make money, and from what I can see the lifestyle sucks.

I'm not saying I'd rather do law than sit around all day smoking weed and playing video games then going out at night with my buddies. If my parents were worth in the 9 figures rather than 8 and if they raised me like a trust fund baby (like some people I know) I definitely wouldn't be doing this. But they're from humble backgrounds and are low key (if you saw where they live or what they drive you would not assume they're wealthy, although they've spoiled me and my siblings growing up), so they made it clear to me that 1) I'm not getting anything past college 2) if I want an inheritance one day, I better be successful in my own rite, as there's no point in giving your hard earned money to a slacker so he can waste it. I think both are fair points although obviously I'd prefer if they just showered me in cash forever lol.

Anyway, I'm probably going to go into law despite everything I've read. Go ahead and tell me I'm delusional, privileged, a douchebag or whatever else, but I'd rather believe my own lying eyes than random malcontents on the internet. To be honest, I have a hard time picturing the lawyers I met who are happy and successful coming to a place like this to talk about how awesome law is (also, let's face it, if it wasn't for the money nobody would do this, but it's hardly the only job you can say that for), but I can picture every single kind of bitter loser congregating on the internet warning that nobody could possible succeed because they failed.

The only point of this post is to share one person's observations, biased though they may be.

Maybe you're just bad at programming - not everyone has the smarts to do it. (Programming, in general, requires a higher intellect than law and medicine.) If your parents are really worth 8 figures, maybe you could borrow some of their money to do a start-up.

Law is a boring, grueling way to make a living. It's not creative or fun. It's not about "failing" or "winning" as much as it blows for anyone with any amount of creativity/artistic talent or any hobbies or other interests that lie outside of paying extreme attention to details and/or drafting boring documents nobody cares about. I'd much rather be an artist/musician or an entrepreneur - something that actually requires creativity/talent. Law is just a relatively boring, sort of 'safe' profession for talentless hacks with no musical, artistic or athletic ability...but hey, that's just one person's observation.

[cheesycake2000]

^ You're totally right, I'm not smart enough to be a coder. I'm not great at math either. The one guy I'm jealous of is doing a physics PhD at Columbia. He's brilliant and having a blast. I couldn't even understand the dumbed down version of what he did. If I could trade places with him, I would. I'd also love to be a supermodel or a pro baseball player or an A list actor, but I wasn't cut out for those things either. But I can ace a standardized test like it's nothing. And the biggest rainmakers I've seen aren't exactly Einstein.

And my parents are still my parents, I don't just get to dip into their bank account whenever I feel like it. As far as startups go, I've been trying to think of something to do and I just don't have good ideas. I'm not a very original or creative person. However, I can stand pressure well, I can pay attention to detail and I don't take things personally. Also I'm smart in an abstract way (as measured by high scores on standardized tests and going to a good college, also being good at trivia I guess) but I don't know what good that's going to do me.

I was considering doing a history or polisci PhD but the job market for that is even more brutal and honestly the work doesn't seem that much better. It's one thing to just read a bunch of history books, it's another to exhaustively research something obscure for years with the sole goal of publishing a hyper specific article in a publication read by practically no one.

[Desert Fox]

Maybe you're just bad at programming - not everyone has the smarts to do it. (Programming, in general, requires a higher intellect than law and medicine.) If your parents are really worth 8 figures, maybe you could borrow some of their money to do a start-up.

Law is a boring, grueling way to make a living. It's not creative or fun. It's not about "failing" or "winning" as much as it blows for anyone with any amount of creativity/artistic talent or any hobbies or other interests that lie outside of paying extreme attention to details and/or drafting boring documents nobody cares about. I'd much rather be an artist/musician or an entrepreneur - something that actually requires creativity/talent. Law is just a relatively boring, sort of 'safe' profession for talentless hacks with no musical, artistic or athletic ability...but hey, that's just one person's observation.

Programming doesn't require greater intellect than law or medicine. However, there is a certain type of specific abstract thinking that is required. Some very smart people just suck at it. I've heard some people say you just "understand recursion or don't" but I think that is too simple.

[PeanutsNJam]

Programming doesn't require greater intellect than law or medicine.

"Programming" is as vague a term as "law" is. First-impression appellate litigation =/= grunt discovery work at a sweatshop. Similarly, developing a new video game engine (which takes teams of people the size of an entire biglaw firm office) =/= coding Angry Birds. You're also vastly overestimating the difficulty of programming, since you're viewing it from the perspective of someone who doesn't have 4 years of undergrad courses tailored to teaching you programming. I can see maybe an argument about law being "easy", but just lol at medicine being easy.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Maybe you're just bad at programming - not everyone has the smarts to do it. (Programming, in general, requires a higher intellect than law and medicine.) If your parents are really worth 8 figures, maybe you could borrow some of their money to do a start-up.

Law is a boring, grueling way to make a living. It's not creative or fun. It's not about "failing" or "winning" as much as it blows for anyone with any amount of creativity/artistic talent or any hobbies or other interests that lie outside of paying extreme attention to details and/or drafting boring documents nobody cares about. I'd much rather be an artist/musician or an entrepreneur - something that actually requires creativity/talent. Law is just a relatively boring, sort of 'safe' profession for talentless hacks with no musical, artistic or athletic ability...but hey, that's just one person's observation.

Programming doesn't require greater intellect than law or medicine. However, there is a certain type of specific abstract thinking that is required. Some very smart people just suck at it. I've heard some people say you just "understand recursion or don't" but I think that is too simple.

Maybe, I may have a skewed perspective because I went to a university with a top 5 engineering program and the smartest people I've ever known in my entire life have been programmers. They think in a way that a lot of people are incapable of doing and tend to be more creative.

On the other hand I've known a lot of dumb lawyers and doctors.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I can see maybe an argument about law being "easy", but just lol at medicine being easy.

Medicine is 90% memorization...doesn't take a genius to do it, just a hard worker. I've known doctors who struggled with CALCULUS.. what idiots. They obviously aren't the dermatologists, but plenty of doctors are of questionable intellect.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

^ You're totally right, I'm not smart enough to be a coder. I'm not great at math either. The one guy I'm jealous of is doing a physics PhD at Columbia. He's brilliant and having a blast. I couldn't even understand the dumbed down version of what he did. If I could trade places with him, I would. I'd also love to be a supermodel or a pro baseball player or an A list actor, but I wasn't cut out for those things either. But I can ace a standardized test like it's nothing. And the biggest rainmakers I've seen aren't exactly Einstein.

And my parents are still my parents, I don't just get to dip into their bank account whenever I feel like it. As far as startups go, I've been trying to think of something to do and I just don't have good ideas. I'm not a very original or creative person. However, I can stand pressure well, I can pay attention to detail and I don't take things personally. Also I'm smart in an abstract way (as measured by high scores on standardized tests and going to a good college, also being good at trivia I guess) but I don't know what good that's going to do me.

I was considering doing a history or polisci PhD but the job market for that is even more brutal and honestly the work doesn't seem that much better. It's one thing to just read a bunch of history books, it's another to exhaustively research something obscure for years with the sole goal of publishing a hyper specific article in a publication read by practically no one.

All of my friends who did PhDs are miserable and/or dropped out. I dunno what it is about PhDs, but I think (at least for the sciences) they are worse than law and med school. It's just a lot more pressure than law/med because there's no structure and you have to "wow" people with a novel idea, which is harder for those who aren't 100% motivated and interested in a particular topic. I think for most people having the structure in law/med school is a lot easier to deal with.

[Danger Zone]

Hey guys, 0L but I have an observation.

So I'm a hodgepodge of typical lawyer traits, maybe in a somewhat atypical combination. Immigrant striver, well off parents (not like, own a dry cleaner well off either) and I would've been K-JD if not for the internet. About halfway through college I came upon things like this thread and Way Worse than Being a Dentist, freaked out, and tried a few different things after failing to get a job in IB (was in the running but hardly on the cusp of it). Long story short, a couple years pass and I decide rather than just chillin with people all day while working bullshit jobs, I should reconsider law (in the meantime I researched a multitude of careers and had friends who went on to become various things that I hear about). So I took a job as a para at a midlaw New York firm (I'm a local). I figured it'd be a great way to make decent cash (without mooching off my parents like I've been doing up until then to supplement my meager odd jobs) and the obscurity of the firm (NLJ 350 or whatever that listing is called but certainly not V100) would mean I'd have a pretty easy life.

Granted, I wound up working more than I wanted to (I suppose I could've skated by with close to 40 hours per week considering I'm not trying to make a career of this and getting fired wouldn't be a big deal, but I was curious what lawyer hours would be like). I feel like what I see in no way matches what I read.

First, I heard there are no good midlaw jobs. That's plainly not true. The firm has a variety of work, including on cases big enough that the average person would have heard of them in the news. Our partners charge in the 600-800 range, so I feel like it's not a nickel and dime type of shop. The only people with good degrees we have are either BIgLaw refugees (pretty much all people who came with the promise of being made partner) or people in their 80s, from back when all firms were smaller and this one was apparently white shoe and elite.

It's clearly gone downhill in terms of prestige as our last three decades of hires are from places I did not realize had law schools, including (just as a sampling) the biggest joke of a school in all of Brooklyn, some place in Atlanta that I don't think even qualifies as a TTT and those who went to better places are mostly Brooklyn Law, Cardozo, NYLS and other similar places. Our associates, as far as I can tell, start at between 110 and 135k a year somewhere but I was unable to narrow it down more precisely.

It really doesn't seem that bad. As a paralegal I get work that's too insubstantial for young attorneys and do plenty of tasks which a normal person could justly describe as boring and repetitive (yet involving enough brainpower and attention to detail that you can't tune out, even if not enough to be challenging). Still, I don't really mind the work. From our time entry system I know our stated goal is 1800, stated bonus is 2000 but realistically it's 2200 to stay not fired and 2400+ to be considered worthwhile. Our office looks like shit (I've been to fancier firms for interviews so I know the difference), although it's finally getting redone. But here are some prominent things I'm beginning to wonder are myths:

Constant 90-100 hour workweeks. Nobody at my place works this much ON AVERAGE. Yes, there are tough times (sometimes for a couple of months at a time) but I'd be surprised if the average was above 65 even considering those. Whenever I leave past 9pm it's usually a small minority of people in the office, and since I maintain peoples' schedules and do their time entries I know roughly how much they work. Some people work from home after dinner, but they tend to be the ones who leave earlier like 6-7.

Extreme up or out. Lots of people at the firm are associates who have been there for over a decade. Many make counsel (few make partner) but even associates make good money compared to the average American. Hell, they significantly beat the average Manhattan residents from what I know.

People being terrible. Most people I work with are normal people. The types of people I see in a law firm aren't that different from the type of people I met in college. Sure, there are some screamers but I am puzzled as to how people could find them threatening. Maybe it's that I grew up in a third world shithole (prior to my parents being well off), but it's just people yelling at you. How bad can it be? Most of the time it doesn't even mean there's anything wrong with you, some people just handle stress that way. A lot of people (and, surprisingly, a higher percentage among partners and even higher among rainmakers than among the firm as a whole) are genuinely nice people. Granted, less so in litigation than in any other practice area I've seen.

The work being soul crushing. The only way I could see this being true is if you've lived one of those lives where your parents spend your entire childhood doting on you to make sure little Tyler feels fully self actualized and non threatened at all times. It's really no different from other office jobs I've had for me and for attorneys (especially more senior ones) actually looks interesting. To be fair, I thrive under stressful conditions so I can see how someone who hates being under pressure would find this job unbearable, because there genuinely is (even at my lowly level) pressure to get perfect work product out yesterday.

No time to do anything. Granted a 40 hour workweek would be better, but people have lives. People date and get married. I don't think divorce is any more prevalent than in New York as a whole. Granted, spending time with kids is tough, that one I'll give you, but I think Americans place too much of an emphasis on constantly hovering over their kids anyway. Lot of people I grew up with mainly saw their dad on the weekend. Anyway, people seem to have lives. They go for drinks with friends, to restaurants, to sporting events, some run marathons, some do martial arts (not Tiger Schulman's either, I've seen the fight videos - they're pretty sick), some just get wasted several nights a week and go to clubs. Basically, generally normal lives from the outside. Also the job seems pretty flexible. If it's slow, nobody is going to fault you for going to a dentist appointment midday, a perk which is unimaginable at your typical blue collar job.


I don't know guys, did I stumble on some sort of unicorn? Prior to working here I wasn't going to go to law school unless I got into a T14 on a good scholarship and even then I was preemptively planning going in house (sidenote: litigators seem to have just as easy a time going in house as corporate, plenty of people have left into in house positions and people give me puzzled looks when I bring up corporate having an advantage) and/or killing myself through decades of drinking.

Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad. And 110k starting (160k and bonus at a good firm!) might not mean much to you (for some reason) but I get the feeling you lack perspective. I grew up in a place where you got your water from a well and sunglasses were high tech enough for people to gawk at. Then my family's wealth went into the 8 figures so while my dad may not be Elon Musk I've gotten to experience a better life than most in material terms. I drove a German car in college and all that good stuff. 110k is still a lot.

The biggest flame of all seems to be the constant "grass is greener". Teachers I know constantly joke (nervously) about being poor. I know some people who are really happy with union jobs (which do pay great per hour and have amazing perks, provided you can get them) but they're mostly pretty dumb and unambitious. Also I know enough mechanics and other union workers from growing up in my old neighborhood that I know the sort of environment they work in is (in social terms) boring as hell for someone like me. There's more to life than worldstar videos and fart jokes. Like discussing an interesting book you read. Nurses seem to work just as hard as lawyers but in way shittier conditions and generally make less. Doctors don't make nearly as much as reputed unless they're either brilliant and in a top specialty or commit massive billing fraud. Salesman is a very unstable line of work. Marketing pays shitty on most levels and is only enjoyable for a very special kind of douchebag. Bizdev guys work nonstop and mostly make less than lawyers do. Software engineering would be a great job if you're into that sort of thing, but I just find programming incredibly boring (it's lucrative enough by reputation that I tried my hand at it as a double major and in my spare time but found it unbearable). Frankly, I'm on the outside looking in but the software engineers I know don't seem that happy. Financiers (especially buy side) do make a lot more money than lawyers at the same age, but in my experience their hours are also significantly worse and (much like in law) there's no guarantee, to put it mildly, of getting to the level where you're pulling in serious cash and their work environment seems worse from what I can tell. Startups are cool as hell, but I don't have the talent or personality for that and very few of them make money, and from what I can see the lifestyle sucks.

I'm not saying I'd rather do law than sit around all day smoking weed and playing video games then going out at night with my buddies. If my parents were worth in the 9 figures rather than 8 and if they raised me like a trust fund baby (like some people I know) I definitely wouldn't be doing this. But they're from humble backgrounds and are low key (if you saw where they live or what they drive you would not assume they're wealthy, although they've spoiled me and my siblings growing up), so they made it clear to me that 1) I'm not getting anything past college 2) if I want an inheritance one day, I better be successful in my own rite, as there's no point in giving your hard earned money to a slacker so he can waste it. I think both are fair points although obviously I'd prefer if they just showered me in cash forever lol.

Anyway, I'm probably going to go into law despite everything I've read. Go ahead and tell me I'm delusional, privileged, a douchebag or whatever else, but I'd rather believe my own lying eyes than random malcontents on the internet. To be honest, I have a hard time picturing the lawyers I met who are happy and successful coming to a place like this to talk about how awesome law is (also, let's face it, if it wasn't for the money nobody would do this, but it's hardly the only job you can say that for), but I can picture every single kind of bitter loser congregating on the internet warning that nobody could possible succeed because they failed.

The only point of this post is to share one person's observations, biased though they may be.

Stopped reading at 0L, as everyone else should.

[Tls2016]

0ls have their own forum as a mod will tell you. Go post there about your 8 figure parents, how you know more than us and we are random malcontents. (I skimmed but this was my take away.)

[zot1]

That's smart, DZ. The 0L says he prefers to believe his own lies than this internet malcontent. Why trust the ones who've gone through the process?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Constant 90-100 hour workweeks. Nobody at my place works this much ON AVERAGE. Yes, there are tough times (sometimes for a couple of months at a time) but I'd be surprised if the average was above 65 even considering those. Whenever I leave past 9pm it's usually a small minority of people in the office, and since I maintain peoples' schedules and do their time entries I know roughly how much they work. Some people work from home after dinner, but they tend to be the ones who leave earlier like 6-7.

...

Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad. And 110k starting (160k and bonus at a good firm!) might not mean much to you (for some reason) but I get the feeling you lack perspective. I grew up in a place where you got your water from a well and sunglasses were high tech enough for people to gawk at. Then my family's wealth went into the 8 figures so while my dad may not be Elon Musk I've gotten to experience a better life than most in material terms. I drove a German car in college and all that good stuff. 110k is still a lot.

...


I don't know guys, did I stumble on some sort of unicorn?

There were many odd things in this post, but I think the characterization of $110k for probably no more than 65 hours a week as a "unicorn" was the most ineffective.

And I sincerely hope that one day we can finally dispel with this notion that starving children in Africa and the general decline in UMC opportunities means you should somehow like your job more.

[zot1]

And 0L bragging about unicorn mid law in a biglaw thread. Imma start bragging about government to y'all now.

[A. Nony Mouse]

0Ls are not supposed to post in this forum. Yes, you have legal experience. No, being a paralegal is not the same as being an attorney.

Also, your post confuses me because you seem to be dispelling a lot of strawmen (the most glaring is that no one says they spend 90-100 hrs/wk on any kind of regular basis, except at the slimmest of margins; 2200-2400 hours annually sounds pretty common based on what people post here).

[zot1]

But Nony, those billable reqs are obviously random malcontents on the Internet.

[Lacepiece23]

0Ls are not supposed to post in this forum. Yes, you have legal experience. No, being a paralegal is not the same as being an attorney.

Also, your post confuses me because you seem to be dispelling a lot of strawmen (the most glaring is that no one says they spend 90-100 hrs/wk on any kind of regular basis, except at the slimmest of margins; 2200-2400 hours annually sounds pretty common based on what people post here).

Also, just because an attorney goes home after putting in a 8 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. day does, in no way, mean that they are done working. Our paralegals do not have blackberries; thus, they are not accessible in the evening. There are plenty of times that I am home working all night after dinner until bed. And I am in a secondary market. I can only imagine what type of hours NYC associates pull.

[lymenheimer]

There's more to life than worldstar videos and fart jokes.

Can't believe I read this far, but here's how I know you're full of shit.

[Lincoln]

Hey guys, 0L but I have an observation.

Stopped reading at 0L, as everyone else should.

+1