Unique 3L Hiring Question Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am excited to be spending my next summer in NY with a V15 (corporate) after receiving an offer (my Toronto law school only had a small number of NY firms come for OCIs). However, I am potentially interested in moving up to Skadden/S&C/Cravath through 3l hiring/lateral. I have strong extra-curriculars and GPA, and will have the V15 summer experience on my resume. Is it possible to make the jump assuming I try? What is the timeline for this process? Is 3L hiring done mainly through ocis and schools or independently (which is better in my case)? Will I be able to complete it before needing to accept/deny a potential offer from my summer firm? Is it possible to accomplish this jump gracefully (in regards to maintaining a certain amount of professional decency with the firm I summer at)?

Many thanks in advance.

[wolfie_m.]

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[Anonymous User]

As the post above suggests, this is not a unique question. People do this all the time. Read that thread for most of the insight you could want.

I can tell you my experience though, as I was active on the 3L market after a 2L SA from a similarly-regarded firm. I had loads of success despite only slightly improving my grades, which were only just good enough for top-of-the-market NY shops at my lower T14's 2L OCI. Talk to friends at the firms you are interested in to have an inside route to their recruiting folks. Do your school's OCI as a 3L if it's not too inconvenient.

A couple notes. First, in general it's much more informal, and it sort of goes how you would imagine. There is no vetting needed really from their side if you have an offer from your SA firm. It's clear why you want to switch - to upgrade - and they will appreciate this. But be very professional and pretty set on a particular practice area.

Second, the V5 like prestige and if you're not coming from University of Toronto and you also didn't have the grades to have a shot at the V5 the first time around, I think you will likely have difficulties. This is overly simplistic, but there will be 3Ls at "prestigious" universities who will be upgrading and will have killed 2L, putting them in position for honors, and the V5 will probably rather have an honors student at T14 over a random Canadian school. Again, overly simplistic, but I imagine this thought comes into their heads.

Third, I have no idea how being Canadian (I assume) will impact the situation.

Fourth, no one really upgrades from the "V15" to the V5. You upgrade from V50 to V5, but the "V15" are already elite enough so that the marginal benefit of upgrading is less than the cost of having to do interviews again, start at a new firm, cut ties with old firms, etc. All this said, GDC/PW NY corporate (which I guess is where you're at) is not that strong, so it may actually make sense, but I really don't know enough to say more.

To go to your specific questions to the extent I haven't answered them already, most people don't actually start the process until after receiving the offer or the last day of work, whichever is earlier. Much thought has gone into before that day, however, with email drafts already written and having talked to friends/your school to get the lay of the land. The risk of getting no-offered because you're on the market again is almost non-existent, but you never really feel comfortable doing it because the downside is dramatically bad.

About making the jump gracefully, if you end up making the move, it is highly likely no one will care enough/remember you to have it impact you in the future. If you try to make the jump and fail, they will also likely forget. At my 2L firm, a lot of people sat on their offers for weeks for no real reason. It's OK. The worst part is telling superiors with whom you've developed close relationships that you're leaving, just because that makes you feel like shit. But if you're straight with them they will understand.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you very much for the extensive advice, I greatly appreciate it! I will keep all this in mind as I go through my summer.

[Anonymous User]

Talk to friends at the firms you are interested in to have an inside route to their recruiting folks

Sorry, I glossed over this part. What's "the inside route," and what should I be asking my friends?

[Anonymous User]

Talk to friends at the firms you are interested in to have an inside route to their recruiting folks

Sorry, I glossed over this part. What's "the inside route," and what should I be asking my friends?

Just to have them put you touch with/mention you to the firm you are interested in. Nothing that requires a great deal of time on your friends' part. This can help you quite a lot. Not only will they have one less reason not to have to vet you, it makes the interview go smoother, because you will have something to talk about. You will also not have sell in your interest in the firm as much. Not to belabor an already obvious point too much, but it can also can help in even more intangible ways, such as making you seem more human by having a friend (or even contact) who was cool and did an acceptable job in the summer or giving them a sort of heuristic that you are already part of the team. In short, find a way to get an "inside route" to the firm's recruiting, which should be very easy as you'll be in NY all summer anyway.

To elaborate on a somewhat related point that I didn't really drive home, what I mean by it goes how you'd expect it to go is the 3L game is the same as the 2L game but as a 3L you now know exactly what to expect. You say "I want to come to S&C because I want blah blah blah (to upgrade)". Immediately the interviewer knows who you are and where you stand. Because you will say these words in any initial correspondence with the firm, the CB to offer ratio I imagine is well above 50% in this scenario too I imagine. There's little for them to learn at interviews. Additionally, the process to you will seem way less opaque. Even if you are a K-JD and don't have a handle on general hiring models, you will understand a law firm's. In your summer you may get asked by recruiting to pass along resumes of soon-to-be 2L friends at your school. You'll hear partners/associates reflecting on their experiences as interviewers during recruitment, and that will give you substantially insight into how to act.

The important takeaway of this point is that you should not stress about anything during this period. When 3L recruiting comes around, all you will be is a summer from X firm who goes to X school, and there is nothing you can do to change that now. Even getting your grades up 2L year probably won't matter a whole lot. Go along for the ride if you still wish to, and if you have success, that's good. If you don't, that's OK too. I think you'll likely discover that, under normal circumstances, there's little reason to transfer from a "V15" to a V5.