Advice: Missed OCIs as a transfer - I am LOST Forum

[UnicornHunter]

Can you get a full-time gig through your job with the FTC if you get it (i.e. Is it an honors program gig)? If yes, that's not a terrible job if you want to do antitrust forever.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I say troll. No one could truly do this.

Sure they could. But if you actually think they're a troll, don't feed them by commenting on it.

And people, if you're going to post anon to tell the OP what they did was really stupid, you're going to get outed.

[DELG]

honestly i have to think the kind of person with this judgment wasn't going to get an SA or offer out of their SA anyway. like anyone else, a person who shouldn't be in biglaw should consider PI, gov't, etc.

[UnicornHunter]

Hello everyone. I am currently a 2L at a T10 school. I transferred from a Tier 4 and was ranked top 5% my 1L year.

Unfortunately, I ended up missing OCIs. My wedding was that Sunday and another family wedding-event that I could not miss/reschedule was during the middle of that week, and although I tried, I was unable to move the wedding date. Also, I transferred out of my home state so there was no way I would have made it to any interviews in time let alone prepare for them. I mailed some firms that I was interested in, but I have yet to receive a response from any of them [except 1 ding].

I really want to work Biglaw, but I know my chances are very slim. I had an interview with the FTC and was referred to the selecting official and am waiting to hear back from them. I also have been offered a few public interest positions in various field [immigration and housing law, and possibly with the senate legislative counsel].

I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice as to a course of action to take. Is it possible to get a position through 3L OCI? Should I mass mail around OCI time next year? If so, when should I start preparing and sending information out?

If you think OCI is pretty much a bust for me, what do you think I should do? Do you think working with the FTC would give me relevant experience so maybe, if I am offered a job, working with them for a while would help me get hired as a lateral? Do you think I should just give up and go for public interest work since that is all I have been offered?

I know that I have quite a few questions, but any help would be much appreciated. Please let me know what your thoughts are and if anyone has gone through a similar situation. I hope the semester is going well for all of you!

*** I would like to clarify that I have mailed firms, and have been since August.

Also, just go into your career services office and don't leave until you have a concrete plan.

[BigZuck]

Like, I get buyer beware and BrotherDarknesses and all that but I think people shouldn't be able to transfer law schools. Or, I mean, let there be a transfer program I guess but there needs to be a serious vetting of candidates and they should have to articulate a compelling reason for the transfer, AND they should somehow be informed of what all the transfer means for their career prospects.

Really, there needs to be more positive intervention from career services. The CSO at every school should be strong, and regular meetings with career services should be a requirement to stay in good standing. Tie it in to student loans or something, make it so they can't be disbursed if you don't meet with your CSO. Then at least people would see them twice a year. I also think that if the government is loading people truckloads of money they should be interested in people getting jobs that will pay the loans back so why not tie in the loan disbursement with doing something that should positively impact their career? You can't save everyone I guess but that would be a step in the right direction (again, all assuming that CSO was competent and honest).

I mean, lulz none of that will ever happen in a billion years cuz CSO is terrible and so much of law school is just a big money making scam and we all have the UNALIENABLE RIGHT to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars of loans to pay for something that is totally worthless. But damn, this makes me sad. Even if the OP was going to self-sabatoge no matter what, I still think the law school transfer system should be overhauled. This isn't the first transfer I know of who did something like this, and I know of others who faced problems at their new school even when they did everything right just because of the transfer taint that some employers perceive them to have. I guess it's impossible to say whether they would have been better of had they not transferred but that seems to be the case with some of them at least. Maybe that's not true if you transfer into a T14?

Ultimately I know it is on the person to do their homework and figure out the implications of their decisions. I just wish things were a bit more upfront on the school's end and that schools made more positive, mandatory, and universal interventions to help ensure all students are put in the best possible position to get a job.

Good luck OP, if you want big law you're not in a great spot but I think posters here have given you good suggestions for the best possible way to proceed.

[barkschool]

I say troll. No one could truly do this.

50/50—Possibly the same person to be befuddled come end of october.

[AVBucks4239]

Agree with BigZuck about transferring. It really is a black box that's harder to navigate than some might think.

I had pretty good stats (was like 7th or 8th in my class at a T3) and transferred to Ohio State. I looked online and saw that interviews weren't until late August (after I planned to transfer). But the transfer process took forever--I wasn't admitted until August 4th or something. By the time I was admitted, the application deadlines had passed (even for the small/mid-size firms that I was targeting). So in a few short weeks I had thrown away at least 20-25 screeners and who knows how many callbacks. Life felt pretty shitty.

I then panicked, posted an anon post on TLS much like yours, and got the same advice you're getting now--mass mail big firms until your hands fall off. And perhaps I shouldn't put too much weight on my anecdotal experience, but I really don't think there's any word in the English language to describe how much of a waste of time this is. The odds of getting hired via mass mail have to be less than .1%. I've browsed TLS since 2009ish and I can only remember a handful of times where an OP was successful with mass mailing.

At this point, the game of musical chairs that big firms play is 99% over--the music has stopped and all the SAs are in their seats. The odds of something freakish happening to an SA and the firm picking up a random resume rather than calling people they had at callbacks are slim to none.

Long story short, you should start to digest that the Big Law ship has sailed, at least for your 2L summer.

With that in mind, if you really want Big Law, you need to shift gears and start to position yourself for (a) clerkship opportunities and (b) 3L OCI. There will be a small amount of this year's SAs that accept clerkships or perhaps continue with a year of getting an MBA or something, so doing everything to position yourself for 3L OCI has a much higher probability of getting you to Big Law than mass mailing.

The shitty part about this is that you still need to give a shit about grades, perhaps even more so than your 1L. That's tough when your 2L friends have jobs and have mailed it in...but ignore them because you still need to have that resume as strong as possible going into your 3L year.

More important than grades, though, is getting a job. And to do this, I think you're much better off going to your career services office and getting a list of alumni working at firms you like (I would look for attorneys that practice in areas that you might like to practice). Big firm, mid-size firm, small firm, whatever, I think nailing down a job so you get some experience in your practice area is better than waiting for the Big Law pipe dream (which again, has 99% sailed) and, consequently, getting some worthless job as a paper-pusher at Donald Duck LPA.

Contact alums, ask for coffee or a telephone call at a convenient time for them, ask them questions about their careers and how they built their practice, etc. Mention in there that you're still looking for a job. Follow up with a thank you and send them your resume. Keep in touch. Something random will eventually lead to something random and life will work itself out.

For my own anecdotal experience, I emailed about 50 OSU alums in markets that I wanted to work in (namely Cleveland, Columbus, NE Ohio, and quite randomly San Francisco). Among others, a partner at a 75 person firm in Akron was pretty receptive and it led to a couple phone conversations. I followed up and, about a month later, the firm realized they had a couple huge appeals coming up in the summer and could use another SA (this is much more plausible for a small/mid firm than a big one). Then they eventually hired me in December and I worked as a "summer associate" for $1,000/week. Not big law money, but not bad.

I got pretty decent experience doing civil litigation. I worked on a couple Sixth Circuit appeals, including a pretty interesting First Amendment case and a couple other big appeals representing other state entities.

That didn't work out full time for various reasons (they didn't hire any of the 5 SAs), but that partner put out a good word for me, and I did make contacts in NE Ohio throughout that summer. I especially made note of OSU alums that I worked with.

I kind of repeated the process my 3L year. I was home over Christmas break and playing racquetball at the local Y. By random chance, an attorney that I'd emailed (an OSU alum) was at the gym and we played a couple games of doubles. He asked me if I wanted to interview, and here I am on my second year as an associate at his civil litigation firm (about 25 attorneys).

All that is a really long way of saying that OCI is structured and mechanical, but once that ship sails, your job search is completely random. Go out of your way to meet and introduce yourself to people, make good friends with your CSO (I still send my CSO a Christmas card), and really start targeting your job search. That might not lead to Big Law work right off the bat, but it will lead to work; and in the short term, that's at least getting you on the path to your career goals, whether that's clerkship, big law, etc.

[A. Nony Mouse]

So it sounds like networking was really important in your job search, huh?

[Anonymous User]

Nailed it. No 2L SA for me and I did everything this guy said. Current big law associate.

Agree with BigZuck about transferring. It really is a black box that's harder to navigate than some might think.

I had pretty good stats (was like 7th or 8th in my class at a T3) and transferred to Ohio State. I looked online and saw that interviews weren't until late August (after I planned to transfer). But the transfer process took forever--I wasn't admitted until August 4th or something. By the time I was admitted, the application deadlines had passed (even for the small/mid-size firms that I was targeting). So in a few short weeks I had thrown away at least 20-25 screeners and who knows how many callbacks. Life felt pretty shitty.

I then panicked, posted an anon post on TLS much like yours, and got the same advice you're getting now--mass mail big firms until your hands fall off. And perhaps I shouldn't put too much weight on my anecdotal experience, but I really don't think there's any word in the English language to describe how much of a waste of time this is. The odds of getting hired via mass mail have to be less than .1%. I've browsed TLS since 2009ish and I can only remember a handful of times where an OP was successful with mass mailing.

At this point, the game of musical chairs that big firms play is 99% over--the music has stopped and all the SAs are in their seats. The odds of something freakish happening to an SA and the firm picking up a random resume rather than calling people they had at callbacks are slim to none.

Long story short, you should start to digest that the Big Law ship has sailed, at least for your 2L summer.

With that in mind, if you really want Big Law, you need to shift gears and start to position yourself for (a) clerkship opportunities and (b) 3L OCI. There will be a small amount of this year's SAs that accept clerkships or perhaps continue with a year of getting an MBA or something, so doing everything to position yourself for 3L OCI has a much higher probability of getting you to Big Law than mass mailing.

The shitty part about this is that you still need to give a shit about grades, perhaps even more so than your 1L. That's tough when your 2L friends have jobs and have mailed it in...but ignore them because you still need to have that resume as strong as possible going into your 3L year.

More important than grades, though, is getting a job. And to do this, I think you're much better off going to your career services office and getting a list of alumni working at firms you like (I would look for attorneys that practice in areas that you might like to practice). Big firm, mid-size firm, small firm, whatever, I think nailing down a job so you get some experience in your practice area is better than waiting for the Big Law pipe dream (which again, has 99% sailed) and, consequently, getting some worthless job as a paper-pusher at Donald Duck LPA.

Contact alums, ask for coffee or a telephone call at a convenient time for them, ask them questions about their careers and how they built their practice, etc. Mention in there that you're still looking for a job. Follow up with a thank you and send them your resume. Keep in touch. Something random will eventually lead to something random and life will work itself out.

For my own anecdotal experience, I emailed about 50 OSU alums in markets that I wanted to work in (namely Cleveland, Columbus, NE Ohio, and quite randomly San Francisco). Among others, a partner at a 75 person firm in Akron was pretty receptive and it led to a couple phone conversations. I followed up and, about a month later, the firm realized they had a couple huge appeals coming up in the summer and could use another SA (this is much more plausible for a small/mid firm than a big one). Then they eventually hired me in December and I worked as a "summer associate" for $1,000/week. Not big law money, but not bad.

I got pretty decent experience doing civil litigation. I worked on a couple Sixth Circuit appeals, including a pretty interesting First Amendment case and a couple other big appeals representing other state entities.

That didn't work out full time for various reasons (they didn't hire any of the 5 SAs), but that partner put out a good word for me, and I did make contacts in NE Ohio throughout that summer. I especially made note of OSU alums that I worked with.

I kind of repeated the process my 3L year. I was home over Christmas break and playing racquetball at the local Y. By random chance, an attorney that I'd emailed (an OSU alum) was at the gym and we played a couple games of doubles. He asked me if I wanted to interview, and here I am on my second year as an associate at his civil litigation firm (about 25 attorneys).

All that is a really long way of saying that OCI is structured and mechanical, but once that ship sails, your job search is completely random. Go out of your way to meet and introduce yourself to people, make good friends with your CSO (I still send my CSO a Christmas card), and really start targeting your job search. That might not lead to Big Law work right off the bat, but it will lead to work; and in the short term, that's at least getting you on the path to your career goals, whether that's clerkship, big law, etc.

[AVBucks4239]

So it sounds like networking was really important in your job search, huh?

Networking with alums who actually have an influence on hiring decisions > being on a journal (and being on the same journal as an alum).

Don't get my other posts wrong--doing journal has its benefits. But the self-importance in the other thread is comical.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, I guess I don't get why you'd cut off what could otherwise ultimately be a productive route for networking, since it matters throughout your whole career.

[052220152]

The odds of getting hired via mass mail have to be less than .1%.

I don't believe this for a second. Maybe his odds now--having waited until the end of October. But mass mailing is very effective, especially coming from a T14.

[AVBucks4239]

Yeah, I guess I don't get why you'd cut off what could otherwise ultimately be a productive route for networking, since it matters throughout your whole career.

I guess I was trying to make two points in the other thread: (1) the posters saying they would knock you for dropping law review won't have any authority over your hiring decision for at least 4-5 years; and (2) law review is completely unnecessary if you don't want to do big law/clerkship. The OP in that thread said he was just doing it for the paycheck, so I thought it was at least relevant to say that if he truly doesn't want to do big law, then law review isn't really that much of a benefit to his credentials.

[AVBucks4239]

The odds of getting hired via mass mail have to be less than .1%.

I don't believe this for a second. Maybe his odds now--having waited until the end of October. But mass mailing is very effective, especially coming from a T14.

Should have clarified: I meant mass mail in late October/early November. I'm sure mass mailing is worth it in August and early September. But now? Almost no shot.

[052220152]

The odds of getting hired via mass mail have to be less than .1%.

I don't believe this for a second. Maybe his odds now--having waited until the end of October. But mass mailing is very effective, especially coming from a T14.

Should have clarified: I meant mass mail in late October/early November. I'm sure mass mailing is worth it in August and early September. But now? Almost no shot.

Word. I agree with that. But I still think its worthwhile.

[pancakes3]

The transfer game is a scam in and of itself

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I got a B4 SA at around this time last year. NB: B4 isn't a direct pipeline to BigLaw, and DEFINITELY not a pipeline to clerkships, but it's a job. And that's what you've got to aim for, OP.

I more or less agree with what people are saying here, that--for this year--the BigLaw ship has sailed. Yes, there will be occasional postings for SAs, but that's one posting for many hundreds of people still looking. I know people who have gotten BigLaw SAs from these, but they are FEW and FAR betwen.

The better news is that not EVERYTHING is closed. Try applying to consulting firms/MBB internships; B4; Banks, In House, etc. Totally andecdata, but I was getting calls for mutual funds/banks well into spring of last year.

Find a leadership directory (your school should have one) and email the shit out of every name you can get your hands on.

Lastly, take a look at your options, because you aren't out of options yet. If you can kill it this year, you may have a shot at 3L OCI. You could clerk and try to get BigLaw that way. Or get a Tax LLM/start your MBA.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thank you guys for the feedback. I actually have met with my CSO quite a few times and continually communicate with her via email. I actually am applying for clerkships now. Hopefully it works out. I agree with a lot of the comments about transferring. It is really difficult getting assimilating and transitioning, not to mention expensive as hell. Also, I am not trying to justify my actions. I know it is effed up, but it is the situation I am in and I want to do what I can to get out of it. I am assuming a lot of you have not been married because there legit was nothing I could to about the timing. I booked the wedding before starting my 1L year. I could have failed my first year for all I know. I tried to move the wedding, but they were not willing to do it as per my contract. Unfortunately, its not like I could just cancel as weddings are VERY expensive and I was already paid in full by the time I knew I was transferring. It sucks, I have been with my husband for 9 years [since I was 15] and every single time we planned the wedding we ended up cancelling for one reason or another, usually because the timing just didnt work with our school/careers. We literally rescheduled it 4 times over the years.

Maybe the poster who said I probably do not belong in biglaw is right. I will keep trying though. I appreciate the great feedback from you guys, hopefully it all works out.

[BigZuck]

Multiple people in this thread are married. If you want big law, you just don't get married in August of the summer between 1L and 2L. You just don't do it. Maybe you do it in early July. Maybe June. Maybe December. Maybe the December before. Maybe the summer before. Maybe the summer after. But you don't do it in August of the summer between 1L and 2L. You just don't.

What's done is done, just got to make the best of it now.

[pancakes3]

I don't think the wedding is as big a deal as some others. Missing OCI sucks but you could have mass mailed, or even mailed the firms coming to OCI directly explaining that your *cultural* wedding is during OCI and you can't make the screener interviews but you'd still like to interview. There were things to be done but they should have been done months ago - which again, I know was busy for you since there was also wedding planning to be done.

At this point, I don't think there's much to do except hustle to find some sort of job for the summer and hopefully it pays.

[Anonymous User]

The real problem here was not mass mailing aggressively in July, knowing you were coming from a T4 school. I'm not OP (and not a transfer) but I totally struck out at OCI, got several CBs through mass mailing, and then my only offer came from one of those mass mail CBs. Mass mailing saves lives.

It's probably not too late to try, and you should definitely hit it hard in August 2016.

[Anonymous User]

didn't mean to use anonymous.

[Ajren Robben]

I say troll. No one could truly do this.

[Anonymous User]

If *big law* is that important to you (and I don't get why). And you don't have any luck mass mailing. And you don't have immediate movement on clerkship prospects (and you need to start on that)... you could try the final "nuclear" option could be to consider adding a fourth year to your education - tack on an MBA or a Masters in Public Policy or an LLM, or if its an option, get a part-time job and switch to the part-time 4 year program (if your T14 school has such a program) (which will reduce your cost). Get a good alternate job 1L-summer style job for this summer (judicial internship, AUSA/DOJ SLIP, etc.). Then take a second run at OCI next year when you will be a de facto 2L a second time in a row.

Another option is to specialize in a field of law where big law firms hire during school-year or post-graduation/pre-LLM clerks -- I think the two big areas here are IP and Tax Law, that might enable you to get an outside of OCI offer too, but I think those are few and far between.

[Tiago Splitter]

didn't mean to use anonymous.

Sums up this thread quite nicely.

OP get great grades during 2l, talk to cso about doing something legal and interesting next summer, and see what happens come next august.