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[SmokeyBar]

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[Anonymous User]

where a US student could pursue a university degree of comparable quality in a particular foreign country and attain OPT in the foreign country of comparable quality.

Here's the problem. U.S. schools are generally considered to be some of the best, if not the best, academic institutions in the world. In addition, you have the incredible strength of the U.S. Economy vs unstable economies pretty much everywhere else.

What foreign countries would this even work in? Europe? Yeah they are in their own economic crisis where almost a majority of their graduates are unemployed/underemployed. China? Good luck with that nationalistic government paying companies to hire U.S. students. The fact of the matter is that almost no U.S. graduates / students would want to go somewhere else. Even if the companies get a kickback from government, the student would have a better chance of getting hired here with increased number of jobs + better academics available.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What number of people on OPT are we talking about?

[Anonymous User]

where a US student could pursue a university degree of comparable quality in a particular foreign country and attain OPT in the foreign country of comparable quality.

Here's the problem. U.S. schools are generally considered to be some of the best, if not the best, academic institutions in the world. In addition, you have the incredible strength of the U.S. Economy vs unstable economies pretty much everywhere else.

What foreign countries would this even work in? Europe? Yeah they are in their own economic crisis where almost a majority of their graduates are unemployed/underemployed. China? Good luck with that nationalistic government paying companies to hire U.S. students. The fact of the matter is that almost no U.S. graduates / students would want to go somewhere else. Even if the companies get a kickback from government, the student would have a better chance of getting hired here with increased number of jobs + better academics available.

I agree. The number of US students who want to earn a degree and work abroad is dwarfed by the influx of foreign students into the US. There's no way reciprocity would work, unless you set a hard cap on OPT to match the number of US citizens being educated abroad. If you understand how much of the US education industry is being propped up foreign students today, you'd realize this would bring a general collapse of the said industry.

[heythatslife]

Oh oops, didn't mean to be anon.

[SmokeyBar]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

I asked how many internationals are on OPT because I'm wondering if this is actually a real problem.

[SmokeyBar]

I asked how many internationals are on OPT because I'm wondering if this is actually a real problem.

If that statistic is not available, would you consider that a problem?

"Do I need to have a job or job offer to apply for OPT?

No."

http://oiss.wvu.edu/students/student-em ... t/opt-faqs

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm just not sure law students really need to worry about international students taking all their jerbs, honestly. It's still harder to get employed as an international, and OPT isn't permanent.

[SmokeyBar]

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[WestOfTheRest]

Thoughts on businesses/law firms hiring foreign students (OPT) over domestic students?

"Businesses are increasingly making use of a little-known program that lets them hire high-skilled foreign workers for internships, without having to pay their payroll taxes — creating what critics say is yet another perverse incentive to pick would-be immigrants over American workers.

Employers don’t have to pay the taxes on workers here under the Optional Practical Training (OPT) program, which allows former students to stay and work for up to 29 months after they graduate from a U.S. college or university, and nearly 500,000 applications have been approved over the last five years, according to a report being released Monday by the Center for Immigration Studies.

'You can be out of your university for more than two years and kindly old Uncle Sam still regards you as a student, allows you to still work legally in this country and worse, pays your employer a bonus instead of hiring a comparably qualified citizen or green card holder,' said David North, the researcher who wrote the report."


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... /?page=all
http://www.computerworld.com/article/25 ... dents.html

Allowing foreign students to work in the US via OPT is not a problem; however, these arrangements should be allowed on a reciprocal basis. Reciprocity means that this arrangement should be allowed where a US student could pursue a university degree of comparable quality in a particular foreign country and attain OPT in the foreign country of comparable quality. Otherwise, there is added tension on the domestic labor market for domestic students.

This is kind of intellectually dishonest. OPT is just 12 months for the vast majority of people. In the legal industry, it ends up being less because you have to apply for OPT before you start working, which means it expires sooner (think 10 months). There is a 17 month extension available to STEM students, but again, this exists because the US labor market is under-skilled in theses areas.

You are also ignoring the fact that foreign students typically don't get to claim tuition credits in the US (depends on residency). So a foreign student may have paid sticker at an outrageously priced institution and get none of the tax benefits that a US student gets. Instead, that student and the employer don't pay FICA taxes for 10 months.

Xenophobia is interesting. Especially when you are talking about highly skilled and highly educated foreigners. Foreign countries would probably love for the US to stop these types of programs, since its resulting in a "brain drain" from those countries.

[heythatslife]

You can do 29 months on the OPT only if you are graduating with a STEM degree, so for law students can stay on the OPT for only 12 months before they get thrown into the H-1B lottery where there's a substantial risk of losing out. If firms hire foreign nationals despite understanding the added risk and the attendant costs, it seems like they hire them because they see an added value in doing so, as opposed to wanting to simply replace similarly qualified domestic candidates with cheaper foreign labor.

[WestOfTheRest]

As a side note, the thought of a large US law firm trying to save money by hiring OPT students so they can get ~10 months of not paying FICA taxes is hilarious to me. The number of extravagances that law firms pay for, the few thousand dollars they save by hiring a few international students is trivial at most.

[SmokeyBar]

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[SmokeyBar]

As a side note, the thought of a large US law firm trying to save money by hiring OPT students so they can get ~10 months of not paying FICA taxes is hilarious to me. The number of extravagances that law firms pay for, the few thousand dollars they save by hiring a few international students is trivial at most.

You are laughing at your own assumption. I did not argue that large US law firms were going to try to save money by hiring OPT students. My argument was about reciprocity and balancing out tension on the domestic labor market. Meaning, the US Gov't should develop agreements with foreign countries where US students could have similar opportunities.

[fats provolone]

you're posting on a forum for prospective law students and have not demonstrated that any actual "tension" exists

[WestOfTheRest]

As a side note, the thought of a large US law firm trying to save money by hiring OPT students so they can get ~10 months of not paying FICA taxes is hilarious to me. The number of extravagances that law firms pay for, the few thousand dollars they save by hiring a few international students is trivial at most.

You are laughing at your own assumption. I did not argue that large US law firms were going to try to save money by hiring OPT students. My argument was about reciprocity and balancing out tension on the domestic labor market. Meaning, the US Gov't should develop agreements with foreign countries where US students could have similar opportunities.

You posted articles about companies saving a dime by hiring OPT employees so they don't have to pay FICA taxes. That's absurd for the legal industry, especially when you're talking about biglaw and its in-house equivalents. As far as "reciprocity" is concerned, you haven't even outlined what you mean. You want OPT periods for US students who get foreign education? Or you want such programs to have tax benefits to the employers?

You're complaining about tension that may or may not exist. You're suggesting a solution that likely wouldn't help anyways because US students are not going to leave at anywhere near the same rate that foreign students arrive. And, you're not even outlining what your "solution" would look like.

[SmokeyBar]

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[SmokeyBar]

you're posting on a forum for prospective law students and have not demonstrated that any actual "tension" exists

"Grassley's concern about abuse of the OPT program may have gotten help this week from the U.S. Dept. of Justice.

On May 22, the Department of Justice (DOJ) announced a lawsuit against Whiz International LLC, an IT staffing company in Jersey City, N.J., alleging that the company directed an employee "to prefer certain noncitizens" in hiring, specifically OPT students.

The employee who brought the complaint wasn't identified by the DOJ, but was hired as both a receptionist and a recruiter.

Less than a month after the receptionist took the job, she received an email from a superior at the company (whose name was blacked out in the complaint) "detailing his preference for individuals eligible for Optional Practical Training (OPT)."

That unnamed superior said that he "preferred OPT candidates because they would be tied to the respondent (the company) and it would be difficult for them to obtain other employment."

This went on for several months until early August 2011, when the receptionist "expressed discomfort" to a superior "regarding the legality" of practices that excluded U.S. workers.

The employee who complained about the hiring practice was fired three weeks after raising this issue.

On May 30, just eight days after announcing the lawsuit, the Justice Dept. said it had reached a settlement with Whiz. The company agreed to pay nearly $22,000 to the woman who was fired. A $1,000 civil penalty was assessed as well.

"Retaliation against employees for speaking up against potential civil rights violations will never be tolerated," Thomas E. Perez, Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division, said in a statement."

http://www.computerworld.com/article/25 ... ation.html

As to the extent of the tension, that remains to be seen.

[SmokeyBar]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=183894

Was that a response to me? Still don't see the problem.

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[fats provolone]

if there are only 100k foreign students doing temp work in the US (which seems ridiculously low but w/e) i can't imagine there is any serious demand from US students to have similar programs available abroad. at least not enough to justify the diplomatic costs of some mandatory reciprocity arrangement