Top Law Schools

How are Vault rankings calculated? Do they take boutiques into account? If so, how? Is it a "bad" idea to take a boutique position rather than a major GP job?

Every year, Vault sends a survey link to (basically all) associates at large law firms. The link contains a list of most major law firms, and asks respondents to give each firm a ranking from 1 to 10 (or maybe it was 1 to 5?) in prestige. The respondent's own firm is not included in the list.

That's it. That's your vault rankings.

I've taken the survey before, it was truly an absurd and useless exercise.

thesealocust wrote:Every year, Vault sends a survey link to (basically all) associates at large law firms. The link contains a list of most major law firms, and asks respondents to give each firm a ranking from 1 to 10 (or maybe it was 1 to 5?) in prestige. The respondent's own firm is not included in the list.

That's it. That's your vault rankings.

I've taken the survey before, it was truly an absurd and useless exercise.

So the prestige surrounding Vault rankings stems from associate ranking their own firms?

mister logical wrote:

thesealocust wrote:Every year, Vault sends a survey link to (basically all) associates at large law firms. The link contains a list of most major law firms, and asks respondents to give each firm a ranking from 1 to 10 (or maybe it was 1 to 5?) in prestige. The respondent's own firm is not included in the list.

That's it. That's your vault rankings.

I've taken the survey before, it was truly an absurd and useless exercise.

So the prestige surrounding Vault rankings stems from associate ranking their own firms?

Yeah - it's voted on by associates.

It's stupid for numerous reasons. Associates generally aren't closely involved with opposing counsel or anything like that, nor do they have a ton of experience working for different firms. Also, an associate's ranking will likely be very myopic - to what extent you're aware of the ability of other firms, it will likely be in whatever area of practice you are in. Finally, I believe all associates are asked to fill it out, including first years.

You can't vote for your own firm, but yeah it's dumb. To be fair to vault though, they literally say the methodology on top of the rankings--its not like its buried in some disclosure. "Prestige" is kind of a bullshit term but they only people who care about firm "prestige" are the people who work at firms anyway, so why not ask them and make the circle jerk complete?

Imagine if the USNWR law school rankings were based solely on peer assessment scores, with first-year law students voting instead of law school administrators and professors. Apply that to law firms and you've got the Vault rankings.

Looks at Chambers rankings for the city and practice area. They're a lot more useful than vault. Vault clearly says how they get their rankings on their website.

I asked my interviewers at O'Melveny & Myers why they believed they were voted #1 for hours by associates on Vault. I realize that's a terrible question to ask for reasons that represent most of what's wrong with this industry, but I was sunk anyways. They looked at me as if I had just dropped my pants and shat in the corner of the room.

Anonymous User wrote:I asked my interviewers at O'Melveny & Myers why they believed they were voted #1 for hours by associates on Vault. I realize that's a terrible question to ask for reasons that represent most of what's wrong with this industry, but I was sunk anyways. They looked at me as if I had just dropped my pants and shat in the corner of the room.

Great story. I seem to recall that Dewey & LeBouef was a regular in the "best law firms for Hours" list. And then they went bankrupt. Although I wish it were otherwise, it's generally not a good sign if the firm leads the pack in this category.

Can this be the next tls group troll?

Reed Smith to V5!!!

The only thing the firms on the "lifestyle" Vault rankings have in common, I assume, is management that harasses associates into giving the firm straight 10s.

anyriotgirl wrote:Can this be the next tls group troll?

Reed Smith to V5!!!

We should have enough associates on TLS to screw with the survey. We should pick one firm to arbitrarily vote up and one to arbitrarily vote down.

Time for Schulte to be recognized for the power house it is.

It seems like everyone believes Vault ranks are arbitrary. Why does TLS care so much about them?

Broscientist wrote:It seems like everyone believes Vault ranks are arbitrary. Why does TLS care so much about them?

TLS is a collection of a huge number of people, but the hivemind actually doesn't care about them, and is fully aware of their deficiencies. But it's shorthand that gets regularly used, and the rankings themselves have garbage methodology but still accidentally reflect some measure of useful information - at least for corporate practices in New York. And since corporate practices in New York are a plurality of desirable entry level legal jobs, that makes vault rankings not useless in many circumstances. Through no fault of their own.

Still though, for all specific questions you see people pointed to Chambers & Partners, and you regularly see people caution against relying on vault rankings when making decisions - especially outside of NYC.

Broscientist wrote:It seems like everyone believes Vault ranks are arbitrary. Why does TLS care so much about them?

Some things are just not meant to be understood. The TLS way is to mock Vault when posting under one's username and then, moments later, to start an anon thread titled "V10 associate taking questions"

thesealocust wrote:

Broscientist wrote:It seems like everyone believes Vault ranks are arbitrary. Why does TLS care so much about them?

TLS is a collection of a huge number of people, but the hivemind actually doesn't care about them, and is fully aware of their deficiencies. But it's shorthand that gets regularly used, and the rankings themselves have garbage methodology but still accidentally reflect some measure of useful information - at least for corporate practices in New York. And since corporate practices in New York are a plurality of desirable entry level legal jobs, that makes vault rankings not useless in many circumstances. Through no fault of their own.

Still though, for all specific questions you see people pointed to Chambers & Partners, and you regularly see people caution against relying on vault rankings when making decisions - especially outside of NYC.

Does the hivemind care about AmLaw 100 firms? NLJ250-350? Or is Chambers the go-to compilation?

Chambers & Partners tries to rank specific practices based on client satisfaction, which actually makes sense. All the others rank practices by size, profitability, or bullshit "prestige" surveys.

That doesn't make them always useless - it can be helpful shorthand when talking and discussing firms, even if it's not a useful ordinal ranking of firms.

LEWIS BRISBOIS BIRAGAR AND SMITH TO V5 STATUS WITHIN THE NEXT 2 YEARS