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I was fortunate enough to receive offers at 2 top NYC firms as well as a few top TX firms (including V20s e.g. GDC and Latham and TX Big 3) and am having a lot of trouble deciding on the best path forward. I'm originally from Texas and want to stay there long term (preferably the DFW area) and I've heard many times that you should start in the area you want to end up. While I would definitely take V&E or LW Houston if I wanted to do energy, I think I would much rather get a generalist M&A experience.

That makes the choice between Dallas and NYC much more difficult because while the TX firms clearly do top-notch energy M&A work, the big, headline M&A deals are all done by the top NYC firms and I feel it would be difficult to get a comparable experience at a Dallas firm. Would this be at all mitigated by taking a national firm like GDC or Weil over BB or V&E? Or if I want to stay in TX would my in-house opportunities be better from a local firm? If I go to NYC, how difficult would it be to move to an in-house role in Dallas?

Thanks in advance

Why don't you split the summer?

I'm biased but I would choose the Texas firms. Your salary goes way further here than up there.

Texas.

Dallas firms have same pay with incredible COL difference, still has plenty of big deals that aren't energy oriented so you can still get generalist experience, not working crazy NYC biglaw hours, and you won't need to take another bar exam if you end up lateraling back.

Also, even though NYC may have more "headline" deals, any work you'd be doing on those deals as a junior associate is not going to be substantial. You'll get the same level of doc review or due diligence work in Dallas or NYC. Arguably you may even get more experience in Dallas than NYC, because Texas firms have smaller class sizes and an overall less sweatshopy vibe to them. This will translate into better in-house opportunities, as they will care what you actually know how to do.

If you love the DFW area and want to end up there, don't go to NYC just because of the prestige. You will be happier in Texas, your bank account will be happier, and you'll get practical experience quicker.

Fwiw i'm in a similar position and will choose Texas for many of the reasons listed above. Big law will be a grind, and being in the same area as my family in a city I know won't make things harder.

Lateraling from NYC to other markets is a lot harder than people would have you think. Not impossible (nor is impossible to lateral into NYC) but recognize if you go NYC there's a significant risk you will not be able to lateral into a top TX firm (let alone a desirable TX exit option, which will be even harder).

If you want TX, go TX.

Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate the advice. Anyone have thoughts on Texas firms (e.g. V&E or Baker Botts) vs. the big national firms like GDC or Sidley?

Texas no question. 160 in Texas is so much more than 160 in NYC that there's just no way around it

In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate the advice. Anyone have thoughts on Texas firms (e.g. V&E or Baker Botts) vs. the big national firms like GDC or Sidley?

V&E is generally seen as top in Texas when it comes to any transactional work. More so in Houston office, but Dallas still has great deals. I'd be a little wary though. They apparently no offered a lot this year in Houston (or so rumors say). They probably will do better this year as they are usually 85%+, but still little scary.

The national firms are all around good, but a lot focus around Houston instead of Dallas, i.e. probably the best is Latham in Houston. If I were in Dallas and looking for high level transactional, you'd probably want to go for V&E/BB/ and I've heard GDC is good too. HayBoo is a great well respected firm with traditionally good work/life balance, but it's bread and butter is middle market deals (nothing wrong with this but if you were looking for the more flashy stuff go to other firms)

can anyone share how low gas prices and the current energy inudstry outlook has affected the tx legal market? Im guessing those no offers are related

Anonymous User wrote:can anyone share how low gas prices and the current energy inudstry outlook has affected the tx legal market? Im guessing those no offers are related

There was a thread on here awhile ago where basically corporate lawyers were saying there deal flow hadn't decreased at all, and everyone was still busy. Low oil prices can mean more mergers too. Always work for lawyers

The oil downturn obviously has had some effect, but BB was still so swamped they asked '15 associates if they wanted to start early. V&E had more no offers than usual this year but they should still be solid long term, being what they are. NRF's humble corp/M&A doesn't do the big deals, but hey their lit folks are still subsidizing your 160K.

I wanted to be in TX and I didn't even bid any NY firms. That's how sure I was: 160K in NY is 71K in Houston after adjusting for CoL (http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/). No amount of prestige is going to overturn the CoL + family connections for me. NYC is an exciting city but in a V10 no way you'll get to enjoy it.

Anonymous User wrote:I wanted to be in TX and I didn't even bid any NY firms. That's how sure I was: 160K in NY is 71K in Houston after adjusting for CoL (http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/). No amount of prestige is going to overturn the CoL + family connections for me. NYC is an exciting city but in a V10 no way you'll get to enjoy it.

Yeah seriously. When your 160K starting salary in TX goes as far as 250-300K+ in NY if you adjust for COL, or basically what a senior associate would be making there.

Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

Anyway, BUMP:

BigZuck wrote:In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

BigZuck wrote:Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

COL calculator doesn't even take into account lack of state/local income tax in TX. If you choose to live in Manhattan, you're getting killed in rent. In Houston $1500 gets you a good place near downtown and $1800 a palace and $2200 the equivalent of Trump Towers.

TX big 3 follows NY lockstep. Wachtell is a notch above TX (along with every other place).

BigZuck wrote:Anyway, BUMP:

BigZuck wrote:In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

Hard to say. At a lot of TX firms all the corporate/M&A folks are mixed together so you work with whoever you want/whoever likes you. I don't think you can overly specialize starting out and you should have ample opportunity to do a bit of everything if you seek out specific partners. But this does depend on the individual firm and how they run things.

Neff wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

COL calculator doesn't even take into account lack of state/local income tax in TX. If you choose to live in Manhattan, you're getting killed in rent. In Houston $1500 gets you a good place near downtown and $1800 a palace and $2200 the equivalent of Trump Towers.

TX big 3 follows NY lockstep, unless you're at Wachtell.

It's nowhere close to a 100K+ difference even including state/city tax. Rent is the big difference, but you're probably going to have to drive and maybe pay for parking which cuts into that savings (I admit though, I'm not sure how much it costs to take the Subway in NYC or how feasible it is to live within walking distance of work). Maybe the rent difference is a 20-30K difference. After rent and taxes, a normal person isn't going to be saving buttloads of money in Dallas/Houston compared to NYC.

It might be a 50K difference. It's not a 90-150K difference like people were saying.

Anyway, Baker Botts doesn't have a weird two track compensation system? NRF is paying lockstep bonuses? I don't know much about the big 3, I've just read/heard that compensation is oftentimes lower. Good to hear that it's not.

Btw I agree that the OP should choose TX here, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly the OP wants/is concerned about.

BigZuck wrote:Anyway, BUMP:

BigZuck wrote:In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

I agree with what I glean to be your sentiment. I interviewed with a very candid young associate that moved from Big NY to Big Tx. She explained that, while having a diverse portfolio made work "interesting" because it was always different, she feels building a sort of specialty (in energy, basically) is much more advantageous career wise.

BigZuck wrote:

Neff wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

COL calculator doesn't even take into account lack of state/local income tax in TX. If you choose to live in Manhattan, you're getting killed in rent. In Houston $1500 gets you a good place near downtown and $1800 a palace and $2200 the equivalent of Trump Towers.

TX big 3 follows NY lockstep, unless you're at Wachtell.

It's nowhere close to a 100K+ difference even including state/city tax. Rent is the big difference, but you're probably going to have to drive and maybe pay for parking which cuts into that savings (I admit though, I'm not sure how much it costs to take the Subway in NYC or how feasible it is to live within walking distance of work). Maybe the rent difference is a 20-30K difference. After rent and taxes, a normal person isn't going to be saving buttloads of money in Dallas/Houston compared to NYC.

It might be a 50K difference. It's not a 90-150K difference like people were saying.

Anyway, Baker Botts doesn't have a weird two track compensation system? NRF is paying lockstep bonuses? I don't know much about the big 3, I've just read/heard that compensation is oftentimes lower. Good to hear that it's not.

Btw I agree that the OP should choose TX here, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly the OP wants/is concerned about.

Pretty obvious you'll save way more and live way better.

Also, with regards to CoL and loans, I know a 1st year from my school (not Texas) who says that she has been able to put way more towards her loans than any of her friends in her circle. Her comparison wasn't limited to NYC either.

BigZuck wrote:

Neff wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

COL calculator doesn't even take into account lack of state/local income tax in TX. If you choose to live in Manhattan, you're getting killed in rent. In Houston $1500 gets you a good place near downtown and $1800 a palace and $2200 the equivalent of Trump Towers.

TX big 3 follows NY lockstep, unless you're at Wachtell.

It's nowhere close to a 100K+ difference even including state/city tax. Rent is the big difference, but you're probably going to have to drive and maybe pay for parking which cuts into that savings (I admit though, I'm not sure how much it costs to take the Subway in NYC or how feasible it is to live within walking distance of work). Maybe the rent difference is a 20-30K difference. After rent and taxes, a normal person isn't going to be saving buttloads of money in Dallas/Houston compared to NYC.

It might be a 50K difference. It's not a 90-150K difference like people were saying.

Anyway, Baker Botts doesn't have a weird two track compensation system? NRF is paying lockstep bonuses? I don't know much about the big 3, I've just read/heard that compensation is oftentimes lower. Good to hear that it's not.

Btw I agree that the OP should choose TX here, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly the OP wants/is concerned about.

Of course it's not going to be 100K of after-tax dollars. My understanding is in NY you take home just south of 100K (source: various TLS threads). In TX a single person takes home 115K (~20K difference). Accounting for rent, groceries, utilities (20K more in NYC, conservative estimate), you're looking at a difference of 40-50K of after tax dollars. This is about half of your take home income in NYC. Hence the 160K --> 72K comparison.

I view the difference more in terms of actual housing market instead of rental. In houston/dallas, if you live a little outside of city, you'd easily be able to save enough for downpayment and afford a good 3bd home after ~4 years of working, even with discrepancies in lockstep. You can't do that easily in NY, you're going to be renting for a long time. That is totally fine for people in 20s, but maybe not so much when people start having families in mid 30s, etc.

Edit: different strokes for different folks. Let's cool city fanboy jets a bit. Because honestly, Houston is the armpit of America with that humidity

Anonymous User wrote:I view the difference more in terms of actual housing market instead of rental. In houston/dallas, if you live a little outside of city, you'd easily be able to save enough for downpayment and afford a good 3bd home after ~4 years of working, even with discrepancies in lockstep. You can't do that easily in NY, you're going to be renting for a long time. That is totally fine for people in 20s, but maybe not so much when people start having families in mid 30s, etc.

Edit: different strokes for different folks. Let's cool city fanboy jets a bit. Because honestly, Houston is the armpit of America with that humidity

Full disclosure: I would never live in NYC and I think TX is great.

But to get the 4000 square foot house/wife combo that all Texans aspire to you're probably going to have to commute like 45 mins to an hour (or more) each way. And you're living in freaking TX. I'd rather live in NYC, my quality of life would be way higher in that scenario, even if I was throwing a bunch of money away in rent.

Anyway, my main point was that a lot of COL stuff is pretty fixed (or close to it) and those COL calculators distort things greatly based on how people here interpret them. Of course the money goes farther in TX but it's not the squalor/king dichotomy that some people on TLS make it out to be.

It's beside the point anyway, I agree that the OP should work in TX. Still trying to figure out what the OP's goals/concerns really are though.

(This is also beside the point but just to be clear, the compensation is 100% the same at TX firms? Google is suggesting otherwise)