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When I tell people I'm considering Skadden the universal reaction is not good. People forced to go out til 2am, yellers, overworked associates etc. Are these things really any worse than any other biglaw firm? I liked the people and while I would rather not go out late every night, I like the idea of not being a robot. Is it as bad as people say?

There have been a few recent threads about this for this cycle. do a quick search for Skadden in the post title.

Not worse than its peers. Nobody cares if you go out or not (during the summer, you should probably attend SOME social events, not unlike other firms). I thought the people there were the most sociable and friendly (obviously a small sample size), which is why I chose it over similar options when I was deciding. The summer class maybe tends to be more on the outgoing side, at least relatively, but at any firm of this size, you will have a wide spectrum of personalities. It's among the handful of the best firms in NY and I am not saying it's for everybody, but if you liked it, you should go there.

Also interested. Im generally outgoing, but I am not huge on the drinking culture. Everyone I met at the firm was great, but from talking to summers drinking seems to be involved in all of the events. Would it be awkward to attend an event and not have 5+ drinks?

Anonymous User wrote:Also interested. Im generally outgoing, but I am not huge on the drinking culture. Everyone I met at the firm was great, but from talking to summers drinking seems to be involved in all of the events. Would it be awkward to attend an event and not have 5+ drinks?

This shouldn't even enter your calculus. Every firm is heavy on the drinking events for summers.

7:00-9:00 am: Wake up. Check phone for emails from partners or about any urgent issue that may have arisen overnight. If all clear (as is typical), go back to sleep/go to the gym/get up and have coffee, watch Sportscenter/news.

9:30-10:30 am: Get to office. Check email. Knock off any quick emails/assignments, check in with other associates and/or paralegals to make sure partners got our work product, projects are moving along, meetings scheduled etc.

10:30-11:15 am: Read news and/or updates about cases I am close to or that I know the partners follow closely.

11:15-2:00 am/pm: Do work. Could be a very wide range of work including calls/meetings/drafting motions or letters/prepping outlines or talking points for deps, meetings, hearings, reading documents etc. I also am regularly responding to a barrage of emails during this period (as I am throughout the day but 12-5 is the heaviest period).

2:00-2:30 pm: Grab lunch, bring it back to desk to eat. Read news/articles/relevant cases I haven't yet gotten around to reading

2:30-5:00 pm: See 11:15-2:00, though this window generally tends to be heavier on the meetings and calls.

5:00-5:30 pm: Walk around, shoot the shit with people. Sometimes grab coffee.

5:30-8:00 pm: Go back through emails to see what I haven't gotten to yet (there will always be something). Knock it out if it's quick, get other people on it with me if it's substantial, defer it till evening or morning if I will handle alone (depending on how busy I am, my interest, and the reviewing party). Check in with associates/paralegals on joint projects. Send progress update emails to seniors/partners.

8:00 pm: Order dinner

8:10-9:30 pm: Work on long-term projects or continue to address the day's assignments if on the busier side.

9:30-10:00 pm: Eat dinner. Read about/watch sports.

10:00 pm: Go home if I can; continue working if necessary

10:30-12:00 pm/am: If home, read (for pleasure) and respond to any work emails I get by phone. If at work, continue working on time-sensitive projects.

12:00-2:00 am: If home, go to sleep. If at work, continue working on time-sensitive projects, curse the individual whose mismanagement of the project resulted in me being at the office.

Anonymous User wrote:Also interested. Im generally outgoing, but I am not huge on the drinking culture. Everyone I met at the firm was great, but from talking to summers drinking seems to be involved in all of the events. Would it be awkward to attend an event and not have 5+ drinks?

As said above, every firm is going to have alcohol readily available at practically every event. There were a few people in my summer class who didn't drink much and although they took a little bit of ribbing, no one really cares. Certainly do not avoid events because you fear there may be drinking wherever you end up this summer.

Former Skadden associate here. Skadden gets a bad rap on some of these threads, but I can confirm that it is no better or worse than other NY biglaw firms. Most of the screamers are now old enough that they don't have anything to scream about anymore (this was an 80's /90's thing that is not tolerated from younger partners). Average billables per associate last year were around 1700 hours and people weren't getting stealthed for being slow. Of course, it can be really crazy depending on your practice group, but that is a function of crazy biglaw clients and not any particular firm. Most people who wanted a personal life could find a way to make it work.

To dispel another myth, I did not find Skadden to be the least bit fratty. It is big enough to have a huge mix of personalities and, while there is a fair amount of socializing at the firm, no one cares about your personality too much of you work hard. In the end they only care about your work product.

I left because I was done with New York, but I miss the firm a lot and would never have left for another NY firm.

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:7:00-9:00 am: Wake up. Check phone for emails from partners or about any urgent issue that may have arisen overnight. If all clear (as is typical), go back to sleep/go to the gym/get up and have coffee, watch Sportscenter/news.

9:30-10:30 am: Get to office. Check email. Knock off any quick emails/assignments, check in with other associates and/or paralegals to make sure partners got our work product, projects are moving along, meetings scheduled etc.

10:30-11:15 am: Read news and/or updates about cases I am close to or that I know the partners follow closely.

11:15-2:00 am/pm: Do work. Could be a very wide range of work including calls/meetings/drafting motions or letters/prepping outlines or talking points for deps, meetings, hearings, reading documents etc. I also am regularly responding to a barrage of emails during this period (as I am throughout the day but 12-5 is the heaviest period).

2:00-2:30 pm: Grab lunch, bring it back to desk to eat. Read news/articles/relevant cases I haven't yet gotten around to reading

2:30-5:00 pm: See 11:15-2:00, though this window generally tends to be heavier on the meetings and calls.

5:00-5:30 pm: Walk around, shoot the shit with people. Sometimes grab coffee.

5:30-8:00 pm: Go back through emails to see what I haven't gotten to yet (there will always be something). Knock it out if it's quick, get other people on it with me if it's substantial, defer it till evening or morning if I will handle alone (depending on how busy I am, my interest, and the reviewing party). Check in with associates/paralegals on joint projects. Send progress update emails to seniors/partners.

8:00 pm: Order dinner

8:10-9:30 pm: Work on long-term projects or continue to address the day's assignments if on the busier side.

9:30-10:00 pm: Eat dinner. Read about/watch sports.

10:00 pm: Go home if I can; continue working if necessary

10:30-12:00 pm/am: If home, read (for pleasure) and respond to any work emails I get by phone. If at work, continue working on time-sensitive projects.

12:00-2:00 am: If home, go to sleep. If at work, continue working on time-sensitive projects, curse the individual whose mismanagement of the project resulted in me being at the office.

Is this typical of biglaw life or is this just how you personally work the best?

Anonymous User wrote:Former Skadden associate here. Skadden gets a bad rap on some of these threads, but I can confirm that it is no better or worse than other NY biglaw firms. Most of the screamers are now old enough that they don't have anything to scream about anymore (this was an 80's /90's thing that is not tolerated from younger partners). Average billables per associate last year were around 1700 hours and people weren't getting stealthed for being slow. Of course, it can be really crazy depending on your practice group, but that is a function of crazy biglaw clients and not any particular firm. Most people who wanted a personal life could find a way to make it work.

To dispel another myth, I did not find Skadden to be the least bit fratty. It is big enough to have a huge mix of personalities and, while there is a fair amount of socializing at the firm, no one cares about your personality too much of you work hard. In the end they only care about your work product.

I left because I was done with New York, but I miss the firm a lot and would never have left for another NY firm.

Naive 2L here, but isn't the "average billable" thing kind of a flame i.e. it accounts for associates on parental leave, people who leave the firm midyear etc. That's what I've heard anyways.

Naive 3L here. I'm going to a smaller firm where we are supposed to hit 2000 billable hours. This is in a secondary market too. Are people at large NY firms really only billing 1700 hours?

Anonymous User wrote:Naive 3L here. I'm going to a smaller firm where we are supposed to hit 2000 billable hours. This is in a secondary market too. Are people at large NY firms really only billing 1700 hours?

Depends on if it's lit or corp, but I'd wager closer to 2500 than 1700

smaug wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Naive 3L here. I'm going to a smaller firm where we are supposed to hit 2000 billable hours. This is in a secondary market too. Are people at large NY firms really only billing 1700 hours?

Depends on if it's lit or corp, but I'd wager closer to 2500 than 1700

Closer to 3000 than 1700 from what I've seen..

I recently accepted an offer at Skadden NY for next year, and was told by 3rd-4th year Skadden associate that average Skadden associate bills 1800 hrs/year.

From my experience average billables at Skadden can vary based on (1) practice group; (2) partners/counsels associates are working for; and (3) office. That said, I can also confirm that secondary markets are not the cakewalk or "lifestyle" career choice people think they are. Have associate family members in secondary markets billing signif. more hours (2,000+) than some Skadden associates (1700-1900).

Anonymous User wrote:I recently accepted an offer at Skadden NY for next year, and was told by 3rd-4th year Skadden associate that average Skadden associate bills 1800 hrs/year.

bahahahahahaha

Anonymous User wrote:Not worse than its peers. Nobody cares if you go out or not (during the summer, you should probably attend SOME social events, not unlike other firms). I thought the people there were the most sociable and friendly (obviously a small sample size), which is why I chose it over similar options when I was deciding. The summer class maybe tends to be more on the outgoing side, at least relatively, but at any firm of this size, you will have a wide spectrum of personalities. It's among the handful of the best firms in NY and I am not saying it's for everybody, but if you liked it, you should go there.

so you're a summer, not an actual associate?

Firms find creative ways to fudge average billables all the time. No way the average associate at Skadden or any peer firm is sub 2000

Even taking into account all the bullshit firms use to bring down average billables, you also need to consider that at most of these places a third of the associates are getting counseled out starting in year three and then continuing each year. So there is average billables and then average billables that won't get you a "talk" and six months to find a new job, which is, I assure you, not the same number. In fact, hours are pretty much the same everywhere in NYC - 2000 - 2200 keeps you employed, 2400 keeps you on partner track, 2600+ means that you'll get a clap on the back at your review. This is based on the experience of about 10-12 friends at 7 or 8 different firms; our hours are all identical, regardless of if there's an explicit requirement or it's tied to our bonus or whatever. Everyone works the same amount everywhere.

wons wrote:Even taking into account all the bullshit firms use to bring down average billables, you also need to consider that at most of these places a third of the associates are getting counseled out starting in year three and then continuing each year. So there is average billables and then average billables that won't get you a "talk" and six months to find a new job, which is, I assure you, not the same number. In fact, hours are pretty much the same everywhere in NYC - 2000 - 2200 keeps you employed, 2400 keeps you on partner track, 2600+ means that you'll get a clap on the back at your review. This is based on the experience of about 10-12 friends at 7 or 8 different firms; our hours are all identical, regardless of if there's an explicit requirement or it's tied to our bonus or whatever. Everyone works the same amount everywhere.

Are hours the same at firms that pay above market like WLRK or Kirkland? Do you end up working the same number of hours at these firms and get paid more for it?

Am Skadden associate. On pace to bill 1700 this year. Was at 1900 last year. This is perfectly normal for my practice group and several others, although there definitely are certain practice groups where the average is more like 2500.

Which are practice groups that bill more? M&A?

Anonymous User wrote:Am Skadden associate. On pace to bill 1700 this year. Was at 1900 last year. This is perfectly normal for my practice group and several others, although there definitely are certain practice groups where the average is more like 2500.

(guy who is about to get the talk)

Anonymous User wrote:

wons wrote:Even taking into account all the bullshit firms use to bring down average billables, you also need to consider that at most of these places a third of the associates are getting counseled out starting in year three and then continuing each year. So there is average billables and then average billables that won't get you a "talk" and six months to find a new job, which is, I assure you, not the same number. In fact, hours are pretty much the same everywhere in NYC - 2000 - 2200 keeps you employed, 2400 keeps you on partner track, 2600+ means that you'll get a clap on the back at your review. This is based on the experience of about 10-12 friends at 7 or 8 different firms; our hours are all identical, regardless of if there's an explicit requirement or it's tied to our bonus or whatever. Everyone works the same amount everywhere.

Are hours the same at firms that pay above market like WLRK or Kirkland? Do you end up working the same number of hours at these firms and get paid more for it?

OK, first off, WLRK pays above market. K&E does not.

Here's the dirty little secret you don't hear about. You know how when you see a bonus memo on ATL and it has all the pablum and then buried somewhere it says "Bonuses will be paid to associates in good standing"?

Ever stop to think about what that means? I know I didn't for my first two years, when everyone was in 'good standing'. Or if I did, I thought it meant "didn't bring a goat to the office who ate an important document" or something like that.

Nuh uh.

So at every firm you have some sort of end-of-year review. It is normally conveniently times a few weeks before bonuses are announced. At that meeting, starting in about your third year or so, a big chunk of the associates in your class year will get some version of the following speech:

"You're an excellent lawyer, but your hours/work product/cut of your face is not at the level of some of your peers in your class year. So this year, you won't be receiving our bonus. And we think that maybe another firm would be a better fit for you in the long term - maybe that's something you should consider."

Then the firm will announce that EVERY associate received X bonus. And if you got that speech, and you are not a total fucking idiot, you will pretend like you did too, because that's the best way to get another job or to maybe change things around at your firm and make them want to keep you (NB: this is a terrible idea). The only person you might tell are your LS friends, after many drinks, when you let your guard down a hair. (As far as I know my firm does not give that talk because I've never heard anyone here admit they got it, but it seems 2/3rds of my friends from law school got it if you get them drunk enough. I find it hard to believe my firm is that much of a special flower. I think it's all done very discreetly.)

Not all firms have the same levels of attritions. Firms that take more laterals (cough K&E) also have higher attrition (cough K&E) and that means they save money on bonuses (cough K&E) which means they can spread some of that money around to the people they keep and some for bonuses for incoming associates / fees for recruiters (cough K&E - to be fair, I shouldn't pick on K&E because there are a dozen NYC firms in that sort of middle tier who play the same game).

Remember, I'm speaking from the perspective of a midlevel - no one really gives a crap about junior bonuses cause the $$ are so small.

Ex-Skadden poster from above. Just to note that sub-2000 hour people were found in most practice groups, with the exception of corporate finance. Even M&A is up and down enough that, depending on the year, you can easily come out around 2000 hours despite several 300 hour months. Corporate finance (Skadden's capital markets group) was the only one while I was there where 250+ hour months seemed to be the rule rather than the exception (might have changed since I left given current market conditions).

The point isn't really to sugar coat biglaw. It's just to point out that Skadden is more or less in line with its peers in terms of lifestyle. You can hide with sub 2000 hours for a long time (5+ years, though may change with larger incoming classes) before getting the boot. Or you can be a gunner and bill 250 a month every month. I currently work for a different elite firm in another market and there has been no noticeable difference in lifestyle between the two. It's just what you want to get out of it.