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got offers from top firms in the market I was at. Got denied by 4 lower ranked firms. I'm not upset since I fee lucky to have gotten an offer, but is this something firms do?

Repeat after me: I'm not entitled to anything.

Probably a personality thing. Top vault firms are less selective because they need monkeys to do their monkey work and fill big classes. Lower ranked firms have smaller classes sometimes.

I was told point blank by a recruiter at a midsize firm that they didn't CB me because they knew I'd end up at a big firm based on resume. Secondary market.

lol wut

It makes sense for them not to give you a CB because CB are expensive. Lots of attorney hours and opportunity cost of interviewing target candidates early. But after you get a callback I don't think yield protect is a thing.

Danger Zone wrote:Repeat after me: I'm not entitled to anything.

cr cr

Maybe, but more likely your lack of interest was palpable.

.

JusticeJackson wrote: interviewing candidates is a huge pain in our ass when We're in the middle of something or deep in the chase to hit our 2000 hours

It's funny, because, while I know this to be true, most people i've interviewed with have seemed as though they were in absolutely no hurry to get back to work lol

Anonymous User wrote:I was told point blank by a recruiter at a midsize firm that they didn't CB me because they knew I'd end up at a big firm based on resume. Secondary market.

This isn't yield protection, it's midsize firms not planning on attrition the same way big firms do.

Callbacks cost almost nothing in the grand scheme of things - $1,200 for a flight, hotel, and really nice dinner? - that's literally 2 days of your summer internship. And lol at the wasted money for attorney hours spent on interviewing. You actually believe that the firm is turning down work to spend an extra 30 minutes per attorney per interview?

There is no such thing as yield protect for law firms; they just didn't like you.

Anonymous User wrote:Callbacks cost almost nothing in the grand scheme of things - $1,200 for a flight, hotel, and really nice dinner? - that's literally 2 days of your summer internship. And lol at the wasted money for attorney hours spent on interviewing. You actually believe that the firm is turning down work to spend an extra 30 minutes per attorney per interview?

There is no such thing as yield protect for law firms; they just didn't like you.

I assume you don't work at a firm. Callbacks are enormously expensive and while I don't know if firms YP (my firm doesn't, but we're competitive for everyone so why would we?), it would certainly make sense to do so.

At least for us, each callback uses about 4-5 hours of attorney time. Figure a mix of partners and associates, NY billing... So say $750 an hour, blended average. So $2000-$2750 plus, as you note, the flight, hotel, lunch. Say around $3000 per callback, since some of our callbacks are CLS/NYU and others aren't.

Now we need to fill a 120 person class. But we don't give offers to everyone we callback, and we don't get acceptances from everyone we offer. Say our callback-to-accepted offer ratio is around 30%. That means about 400 callbacks. 400*3000 = 1,200,000. That's real money, even for a big firm.

Anonymous User wrote:I was told point blank by a recruiter at a midsize firm that they didn't CB me because they knew I'd end up at a big firm based on resume. Secondary market.

this is a polite way of saying you didnt meet their "fit." Fit is a lot more important in a secondary market than somewhere like Skadden.

Also just a function of class size + selectivity. Top firms tend to draw large classes from the top of the class. If you have the grades to clear their bar, you've got a pretty good chance of being in. Lower ranked firms tend to draw smaller classes from a wider range. As long as you clear a firm's grade cut off, you're statistically more likely to get an offer from a higher ranked firm than a lower ranked one.

Calling it "yield protection" is a gross oversimplification.

The "higher ranked" firms (and remember that ranking firms is complete bullshit for the most part) generally have higher academic / law school requirements, which means they have fewer candidates to choose from. But they often have large SA class sizes and can't afford to be as picky when it comes to personalities and other things that should matter. Lower ranked firms generally have smaller class sizes and are more careful about personality. If you have offers from a bunch of top Vault firms but are getting shut out by smaller firms, it's possible that you're an insufferable piece of shit with good grades from a good law school.

Anonymous User wrote:I was told point blank by a recruiter at a midsize firm that they didn't CB me because they knew I'd end up at a big firm based on resume. Secondary market.

(things that never happened)

Danger Zone wrote:Repeat after me: I'm not entitled to anything.

Anonymous User wrote:It makes sense for them not to give you a CB because CB are expensive. Lots of attorney hours and opportunity cost of interviewing target candidates early. But after you get a callback I don't think yield protect is a thing.

Bingo.

/thread

I don think firms yield protect the way law schools do, but I do think some firms are more judicious with giving offers to candidates they like but don't think will accept. I had an interview with a midsize firm where the hiring partner (last interview of the day), said that from what his colleagues and had said/what my credentials suggested I would probably get a lot of other offers--so why would I want this firm? It was a good question because I did really want the firm and it gave me a chance to sell my interest in some of it's quirkier features. But he didn't ask (only) because he wanted to hear me ramble on excitedly about his firm. He knew they could only give out a small number of offers at a time (unlike say Skadden, who is taking so many summers that one acceptance more or less isn't a big deal) and if I was obviously going to end up at the V10 across the street, it would hamper their recruiting efforts later if I waited 27 days just to turn them down.

wons wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Callbacks cost almost nothing in the grand scheme of things - $1,200 for a flight, hotel, and really nice dinner? - that's literally 2 days of your summer internship. And lol at the wasted money for attorney hours spent on interviewing. You actually believe that the firm is turning down work to spend an extra 30 minutes per attorney per interview?

There is no such thing as yield protect for law firms; they just didn't like you.

I assume you don't work at a firm. Callbacks are enormously expensive and while I don't know if firms YP (my firm doesn't, but we're competitive for everyone so why would we?), it would certainly make sense to do so.

At least for us, each callback uses about 4-5 hours of attorney time. Figure a mix of partners and associates, NY billing... So say $750 an hour, blended average. So $2000-$2750 plus, as you note, the flight, hotel, lunch. Say around $3000 per callback, since some of our callbacks are CLS/NYU and others aren't.

Now we need to fill a 120 person class. But we don't give offers to everyone we callback, and we don't get acceptances from everyone we offer. Say our callback-to-accepted offer ratio is around 30%. That means about 400 callbacks. 400*3000 = 1,200,000. That's real money, even for a big firm.

Hours spent doing callbacks don't replace billable hours, though. They're just added on top.

not wanting to waste atty time isn't just about cost

It actually seems like it might be a thing in markets with tiny summer classes (like SF) because the margin of error is so small (versus a class of 100+ summers in NY). With a summer class of, say, 5, the firm doesn't want to risk making too many offers and ending up with 8 summers instead, and they also don't want to "waste" an offer on someone who seems relatively unlikely to accept and who might only turn the offer down at the end of September, by which point other candidates who might be next in line for an offer are likely to have accepted elsewhere. I have some anecdata for this, but am reluctant to share until I'm done with the process due to fear of outing. I doubt it's a thing for firms with big summer classes, though.

JohannDeMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I was told point blank by a recruiter at a midsize firm that they didn't CB me because they knew I'd end up at a big firm based on resume. Secondary market.

this is a polite way of saying you didnt meet their "fit." Fit is a lot more important in a secondary market than somewhere like Skadden.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
(things that never happened)

Wait, what? OP's experience is not uncommon in secondary markets at all, especially for midsized firms. It's the same reason why many lower ranked firms aren't giving CBs to t14 top 10%ers even if they kill the interview.

youre wrong and probably dont know what killing an interview is then. most firms in secondary markets are harder to land than skadden nyc.

id bet 80% of the people gobbled up by V2-V10 would strike out in seattle, miami, and milwaukee.

they care about ties and personality because they arent just hiring someone for 2 years to push paper. these firms hire people with the intention that everyone can be partner material from the get go. its a lot more selective. sorry you have a bad personality.

PMan99 wrote:

wons wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Callbacks cost almost nothing in the grand scheme of things - $1,200 for a flight, hotel, and really nice dinner? - that's literally 2 days of your summer internship. And lol at the wasted money for attorney hours spent on interviewing. You actually believe that the firm is turning down work to spend an extra 30 minutes per attorney per interview?

There is no such thing as yield protect for law firms; they just didn't like you.

I assume you don't work at a firm. Callbacks are enormously expensive and while I don't know if firms YP (my firm doesn't, but we're competitive for everyone so why would we?), it would certainly make sense to do so.

At least for us, each callback uses about 4-5 hours of attorney time. Figure a mix of partners and associates, NY billing... So say $750 an hour, blended average. So $2000-$2750 plus, as you note, the flight, hotel, lunch. Say around $3000 per callback, since some of our callbacks are CLS/NYU and others aren't.

Now we need to fill a 120 person class. But we don't give offers to everyone we callback, and we don't get acceptances from everyone we offer. Say our callback-to-accepted offer ratio is around 30%. That means about 400 callbacks. 400*3000 = 1,200,000. That's real money, even for a big firm.

Hours spent doing callbacks don't replace billable hours, though. They're just added on top.

Nope. Keep in mind people will only work a certain amount per day, TLS flame about working till 2AM aside. When we take 1-2 hours in a day to do callbacks on the week when most of the folks from our alma mater are interviewing, we all bill less. From associates on up to partners.