Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC Forum

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Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Kirkland & Ellis
73
34%
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett
142
66%
 
Total votes: 215

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Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:42 pm

Sorry to start another one of these threads, but I am really torn here.

Interested in: Corporate. M&A, pe/funds, maybe capital markets.

More info: Really liked the people at both. Kirkland felt more outgoing, young, and laid back than what I've been reading here. Everyone at Simpson I've met has come off as really nice and genuine. I'll be doing second looks at both.

Any advice? What should I look for during second looks? Will I make THAT much more money at Kirkland and will I work THAT much less at Simpson? Where am I more likely to make partner? Which one has better exit options? Which one is more prestigious?

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Mad Hatter

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Mad Hatter » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:53 pm

To answer your last few questions:

Comp: minimal difference (K&E barely SHATTERS these days)

Work: same

Partner: finding a unicorn (K&E) vs. Elvis being alive (STB)

Exit oops: similar, largely client-based

Prestige: same

If you want to be ballsy and feel like the interviewer is chill, you can straight up ask how they're different, especially if you have an offer from the other already.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:00 pm

Mad Hatter wrote:To answer your last few questions:

Comp: minimal difference (K&E barely SHATTERS these days)

Work: same

Partner: finding a unicorn (K&E) vs. Elvis being alive (STB)

Exit oops: similar, largely client-based

Prestige: same

If you want to be ballsy and feel like the interviewer is chill, you can straight up ask how they're different, especially if you have an offer from the other already.
Comp isn't a minimal difference for everyone - anything over a certain hour range averages out to about $50/hr more than market with KE bonuses. If you're working a lot, that makes a difference.

Non-share partnership is treated a bit differently compared a sr associate - they aren't equivalents (nsps regularly go on pitches, which sr associates do much less of)

And work is different - middle market PE with some large funds in vs mostly large funds (and this can lead to different exit ops).

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Old Gregg

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Old Gregg » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:57 am

Non-share partnership is treated a bit differently compared a sr associate - they aren't equivalents (nsps regularly go on pitches, which sr associates do much less of)
Yeah, it is quite the difference. You have to pay for your own health insurance (so pay is slightly below market at the outset), if you're not on track for shares (which you'll know by the time you actually make NSP), your bonus likely won't beat market, you are paid quarterly, and you have handle taxes on your own.

The title is sweet, though. I, seriously, would take and enjoy the new partner office, despite the fact that I'm not fooling anyone that I'm a share partner despite being 6 years out of law school...

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by igo2northwestern » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:40 am

Mad Hatter wrote:To answer your last few questions:

Comp: minimal difference (K&E barely SHATTERS these days)

Work: same

Partner: finding a unicorn (K&E) vs. Elvis being alive (STB)

Exit oops: similar, largely client-based

Prestige: same

If you want to be ballsy and feel like the interviewer is chill, you can straight up ask how they're different, especially if you have an offer from the other already.
Echo points on difference in exit ops, as client composition is pretty distinct.

Same prestige NYC? I don't think KE NYC is on par with Simpson's flagship - at least that's the sense I've gotten from peers/recruiting/etc.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:17 pm

Kirkland bonus comp is still pretty great for mid- to top- performers (top performers either being based on skill or hours). The multiplier starts to be felt around 4th year associates.

This was last year: http://abovethelaw.com/2014/12/associat ... t-ceiling/
For those of you not familiar with K&E bonuses, here’s how they work. As we’ve explained before, K&E bonuses are individualized — based on seniority, hours, and performance (e.g., “above class,” “with class,” “below class”) — but even the lowest-paid Kirkland associate usually beats the market. And that seems to be the case this year, based on what we are hearing:
•“K&E bonuses are gigantic, generally 25 to 50 percent more than the Davis Polk scale, with some big billers even higher than that. This level of generosity was surprising, and people are elated.”
•“Associates are universally thrilled — Kirkland crushed the Davis Polk numbers. No one got lower than Davis Polk, and the vast majority got substantially more (many 1.5 times DPW). Top bonuses worked out to about 50% of base comp and exceeded six figures. I’m a mid-level with low hours but good reviews, got 1.25 DPW.”
•“K&E bonuses killed it. This is the first year the partners did a town hall presentation on bonuses that I can recall, and I can see why. The presentation slides showed that our bonuses ranged anywhere from 1.25x to over 2.0x the DPW scale (DPW scale is the floor, it seems).”

Here are some individual data points (made more vague to protect anonymity):
•“Third-year associate, more than 2500 hours and above-class rating, more than $100K [DPW amount: $50K].”
•“Kirkland Chicago, 2011 class, over $50K [DPW amount: $50K].”
•“Just got my bonus call at Kirkland. Class of 2012, over $30K [DPW amount: $25K]. Quite pleased. Happy holidays indeed!”

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:04 pm

Just an anecdote, but one of my good friends is a 2nd year associate at Kirkland NYC, billed 2300 hours last year and his bonus was the exact same as the DPW scale. They may have shattered the market in the past, but not really this most recent year.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd consider bonuses at all when deciding between these 2 firms for an SA, as K&E bonuses, based on the limited information available, seem pretty close to the DPW scale (at least until you hit your 4th year or so and bill a ridiculous amount of hours, which who knows where you will be/what the bonus situation will be by then).

These are pretty comparable firms, but they have very different atmospheres and tend to attract different types of law students. Consider whether, for example, you'd prefer the centralized assignment system of STB vs the free market system of K&E.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:51 am

Bump

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by SLS_AMG » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to start another one of these threads, but I am really torn here.

Interested in: Corporate. M&A, pe/funds, maybe capital markets.

More info: Really liked the people at both. Kirkland felt more outgoing, young, and laid back than what I've been reading here. Everyone at Simpson I've met has come off as really nice and genuine. I'll be doing second looks at both.

Any advice? What should I look for during second looks? Will I make THAT much more money at Kirkland and will I work THAT much less at Simpson? Where am I more likely to make partner? Which one has better exit options? Which one is more prestigious?
I think most of your quedtions have been andswered. The money will be similar - at least in your first few years. You are unlikely to make partner at either, but perhaps slightly more likely at K&E due to their non-equity partnership track. Exit options are probably not noticeably different in substance, and will depend on your practice area. To the extent prestige matters to you in your decision, STB is more prestigious than K&E in NYC.

I really find it hard to believe that someone can't decide a preference between a centralized assignment system and a free-market system.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:31 pm

Free market v. central assigning is especially significant when the free market firm is not lockstep. Wouldn't put nearly as much stock into the distinction if the free market firm were Cleary, e.g.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:57 pm

Can anyone with familiarity of Kirkland speak to whether it is possible to take vacations, go home early during lull periods, etc (as compared to lock-step firms) or if there is undying pressure to work work work

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:57 am

Will Kirkland be paying market shattering bonuses by 2017 making compensation there comparably more than at STB in 2017?

Do you make more or less as non-equity partner at Kirkland compared to a 5th/6th yr associate at STB? Have heard mixed things on this.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:07 am

To the poster who asked about vacations and going home during lull period at Kirkland, I've seen Corporate second-years take 2 or 3 weeks of vacation after a big deal finishes. A 5th year that I worked with took off a full month for his wedding/honeymoon.

And as far as lulls in the work go, they aren't that frequent but people take the no-facetime requirement pretty seriously. If you have no reason to come in, you can just work from home (assuming you're a decent performer and get things done while at home).

That said, you obviously need to be prudent about when you're taking vacations or working from home, but people seem to respect those decisions (although, if you take vacation during a busy deal, you'll get calls and emails because that's what happens during a deal).

The free market system is really the big selling point because you can create your own busy times and lulls. It also has an impact on the culture of the firm (if an NSP or Partner is a jerk to all associates who work for him, people will no longer work for him, he won't be able to staff deals, and he won't get more deals, so even he is incentivized to play nice).

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:42 am

Anyone know if it's possible to split both these firms during a summer?

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:48 am

For STB - not in NYC, but you could split STB NY with Kirkland Chicago (say). STB has a no-splitting policy with NY offices of other firms generally.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:54 am

Bump.

Does being awarded the 25k fellowship at Kirkland make this a no brainer? I am still really torn.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Old Gregg » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:29 am

All else equal, sure. But if you have a preference for one or the other, don't let $25k sway your decision.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:42 am

Old Gregg wrote:All else equal, sure. But if you have a preference for one or the other, don't let $25k sway your decision.
Honestly was leaning STB but at some point the slightly larger bonuses + 25k becomes a significant amount of money

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Old Gregg » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Old Gregg wrote:All else equal, sure. But if you have a preference for one or the other, don't let $25k sway your decision.
Honestly was leaning STB but at some point the slightly larger bonuses + 25k becomes a significant amount of money
I mean unless you're truly convinced you'll be happier at STB, go with the money I suppose. My point is that if you think fit is perfect, you shouldn't sacrifice it for money. Keep in mind that the K&E bonuses will keep getting stingier and stingier. They're definitely not what they were in 2006 and 2007, or 2010 or 2011 for that matter. The firm leadership has dramatically changed since those days and, with that, their attitude toward crazy good bonuses.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:19 pm

Is the Kirkland NY office quite fratty? Have heard mixed things

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is the Kirkland NY office quite fratty? Have heard mixed things
I think this depends heavily on the people that you work with.

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is the Kirkland NY office quite fratty? Have heard mixed things
FWIW, its definitely a younger group of people (partly due to the fact that KE lateralled many young partners)

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:37 pm

What groups are known for frattyness?

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:09 pm

Do you make significantly more as a non-share partner at Kirkland compared to a senior associate in the same class at STB? What about workload?

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Re: Simpson vs. Kirkland - NYC

Post by Old Gregg » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Do you make significantly more as a non-share partner at Kirkland compared to a senior associate in the same class at STB? What about workload?
if you're on track to get shares, yes. if you're not (vast majority are not), no.

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