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I've been lucky enough to have gotten a number of CBs, gone to a lot of them, and gotten some offers. I've also turned some down so I'm not hoarding them, but I've been basing those decisions based on Chambers and Vault rather than any "fit" or "culture" feel. I'm down to four firms that are my top choices, but now I'm stuck.

I know a lot of people at firms and on TLS talk about firm culture making huge difference between firms, and maybe I'm missing something, but I can't tell anything about a firm's culture during my CB, and haven't been able to on second looks either. Am I asking the wrong questions? What am I really looking for--or what do people mean when they talk about a firm culture?

In my case, I had met a good number of attorneys from the firm and really felt like I clicked with many of them. It was a much stronger feeling than I had gotten from any other firm.

For me, it's whether I like the people I've met from the firm and how the firm is known to treat its associates (as well as how the firm's more senior members are known to act).

For some, those things aren't important to them. For me, working with people I like, want to socialize with, and working for someone I can tolerate are important. I also want to work for a firm that is at least somewhat nice to its associates (outside of the crazy hours and the work).

It was pretty easy to tell for me which firms I liked and which I didn't. I got distinctly different impressions from lawyers at a certain V5 firm than I did from lawyers at a V10 and I liked the V10 firm MUCH more.

IME, the set of elite new york firms students wind up stuck choosing between (elite band 1, ect) do have pretty distinct cultures, and that shines through in recruiting. You'd have to mention more specifically the firms you're considering, though.

Can anyone speak to Weil v. Kirkland?

I think Weil and Kirkland are both known as more social and outgoing firms. This is only based on what I've heard and the folks I know there though. For the other top NY firms (obviously on a very general level), it's probably something like Cravath/S&C, Skadden, DPW/STB when it comes to similar cultures - not sure if others agree. Culture is an amorphous thing that's hard to get a good sense of, so I've always gone by wherever you feel "'most comfortable." That's vague too but it really is going with ur gut feeling for the most part at that point.

You know it when some partners and associates admit that they yell and scream at each other sometimes.

You know it when some partners and associates admit that they yell and scream at others sometimes.

Culture is kind of hard to pin down. There is, of course, the "feeling" that pervades the firm, and one can get hints based on how the firm is run. For instance, Cravath has a very formal culture, as seen from its adherence to a business formal dress code.

I think most people are actually talking about the associates and summers when they talk about culture, though. I think, speaking generally:

Cravath: tends to have pretty serious, formal associates/summers who are, at least to some degree, prestige whores;

S&C: known to hire almost entirely based on grades, so it has probably the least consistent culture and the hardest personality to distinguish among associates/summers;

Davis Polk: has a polite, friendly (passive aggressive?) reputation with associates/summers that are probably more social than the other non-Skadden elite NY firms;

Simpson Thacher: often compared to DPW, but I think its associates are maybe a bit more academic/nerdy and perhaps a bit less social;

Skadden: well-deserved fratty rep where associates and summers frequently socialize after work into the wee hours;

Cleary: often described as "quirky" with associates that tend to have some sort of international background; I'd say most similar to Simpson of the above firms.


Of course, these are just my opinions (influenced by those of my friends, with whom I've had this discussion). I'm sure others think differently, but I think the above more or less tracks the general view of these firms.

Why are people at Cravath "prestige whores"..?

Anonymous User wrote:Why are people at Cravath "prestige whores"..?

Because they choose what is going to be guaranteed awful hours (instead of just likely awful hours) for a job that will give them the same outcome as other firms.

Cravath is a great place, but it's not a superlative outcome. I would be interested in seeing how exits line up with peer firms- I'd expect people go the same places, but they might lateral out a bit more quickly at Cravath.

Anonymous User wrote:Why are people at Cravath "prestige whores"..?

Because a lot of people who choose the firm do so because they make certain associations with the name and the vault survey. Some choose it because of its terrific public m&a practice or its training in rotations, but IME a large number of its summer crop would prefer another firm if not for feeling that working at CSM continues the chase, so to speak. The entire V5 attracts people like this to varying degrees, but CSM's summer class is traditionally composed of the "worst offendors" since most people considering one of these firms are considering several of them (although interestingly, at my t6 dpw has the highest accepted offer rate and csm a middle one).

I had to choose between CSM and a bunch of the other firms mentioned above and I chose CSM based on culture. In addition, the people I met seemed less "formal" to me than the ones at the other firms. I'd fully expected to hate it based on TLS gospel.

Anonymous User wrote:I had to choose between CSM and a bunch of the other firms mentioned above and I chose CSM based on culture. In addition, the people I met seemed less "formal" to me than the ones at the other firms. I'd fully expected to hate it based on TLS gospel.

I actually think this is one of the things Cravath really has going for it. The reputation is just so awful that when you meet the attorneys you're pleasantly surprised by how nice everyone is.

smaug wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Why are people at Cravath "prestige whores"..?

Because they choose what is going to be guaranteed awful hours (instead of just likely awful hours) for a job that will give them the same outcome as other firms.

Can anyone else speak to this last point? Is it accurate that at CSM the awful hours are "guaranteed," while at peer firms like STB or DPW they're only merely "likely"? Or is this just one of those rumors that's been perpetuated without any real basis in anything other than rumor/conjecture to begin with?

Anonymous User wrote:

smaug wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Why are people at Cravath "prestige whores"..?

Because they choose what is going to be guaranteed awful hours (instead of just likely awful hours) for a job that will give them the same outcome as other firms.

Can anyone else speak to this last point? Is it accurate that at CSM the awful hours are "guaranteed," while at peer firms like STB or DPW they're only merely "likely"? Or is this just one of those rumors that's been perpetuated without any real basis in anything other than rumor/conjecture to begin with?

Mine is based on my friends who left Cravath, but you do you.

Any thoughts on Latham NY? Or are they not prestigious enough to be peers of the above named?

Anonymous User wrote:

smaug wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Why are people at Cravath "prestige whores"..?

Because they choose what is going to be guaranteed awful hours (instead of just likely awful hours) for a job that will give them the same outcome as other firms.

Can anyone else speak to this last point? Is it accurate that at CSM the awful hours are "guaranteed," while at peer firms like STB or DPW they're only merely "likely"? Or is this just one of those rumors that's been perpetuated without any real basis in anything other than rumor/conjecture to begin with?

A friend of mine who has worked at both CSM and one of the supposedly gentler firms mentioned here claims the hours are the same.

From asking associates during interviews and second looks, I didn't hear of any significant differences in the hours of top firms.

If you're doing m&a at any of the top m&a firms you're guaranteed to get crushed no matter what. Firms differ in the type of niche work that they do and so yeah your life is going to be much better at a "peer" firm if you're in like a fund formation group or w/e but I wouldn't say that because of that you *might* work less at DPW than at CSM. Their bread and butter groups are going to be crushing.

Anonymous User wrote:Any thoughts on Latham NY? Or are they not prestigious enough to be peers of the above named?

Seems the answer to this question is "no, they're not."