Biglaw associates: are any of us actually happy? Forum

[Desert Fox]

[Anonymous User]

I work for a pretty humane regional firm and could probably make equity partner if I wanted to.

1 year in, already know there's little chance I make it to year 2. Partnership seems terrible. Like an endless hustle.

Also quantifying your life with billable hours is soul crushing.

And the work is largely alienating (in the marxist form of the term), meaningless, and sisyphean.

[Desert Fox]

[Anonymous User]

I work for a pretty humane regional firm and could probably make equity partner if I wanted to.

1 year in, already know there's little chance I make it to year 2. Partnership seems terrible. Like an endless hustle.

Also quantifying your life with billable hours is soul crushing.

lulz

It's not an overstatement - we don't really have much if any attrition. Most associates make partner. Virtually no one gets pushed out. Still sucks. At least to me.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at and have been at great biglaw firms, worked on "important" work, and am at a place that is actually on the better side of biglaw.

If I could find a reasonable other job to have, I'd already be gone.

The problem is that all in-house work wants 5-7 years and no one seems to want lawyer refugees. It basically looks like I'll be pursuing another grad degree to retool and then go into public interest/gov't work so as to never confront the student loans.

[los blancos]

I think it may be a mix: if you do a meaningless job, but you do it 9-5, M-F, you at least have the opportunity to go find meaning elsewhere.

If you work long hours at a very meaningful job, it may be hard to fit in friends and family and hobbies, but there is at least a redeeming reason for your sacrifice.

But if you are sacrificing heavily for something without any meaning? That's just tough. That's regret-making material.

Totally agree. Meaningless when you have (and have time for) a personal life is fine. Having no personal life if you love your work and take great meaning in what you do can be fine, too. Meaningless work and no personal life really sucks.

Yeah I agree - I can do long hours as long as I enjoy what I'm doing. The 0/2 is toxic, though.

And I mean I've never understood the attraction to bucketloads of money when you never really have any time to enjoy said money (talking more about partnership here than associates seeking to pay back debt and such).

[krads153]

I've learned about what it means to have a fulfilling life. I used to think that you could feel fulfilled in your job, but honestly, for most jobs (and probably 90% of office jobs), you can't. So you have to derive fulfillment from other aspects of your life - i.e., your personal relationships. And if you don't have as much time to maintain these relationships, then you feel sort of goalless and unfulfilled, if that makes any sense.

Money doesn't buy happiness through the obtainment of material goods. It buys happiness because it buys you free time to develop a fulfilling life through other aspects of your life. That's why I don't get people who work a ton even though they have tons of money.

[so ambivalent]

I've learned a lot in biglaw, about what it means to have a fulfilling life. I used to think that you could feel fulfilled in your job, but honestly, for most jobs (and probably 90% of office jobs), you can't. So you have to derive fulfillment from other aspects of your life - i.e., your personal relationships. And if you don't have as much time to maintain these relationships, then you feel sort of goalless and unfulfilled, if that makes any sense.

Money doesn't buy happiness through the obtainment of material goods. It buys happiness because it buys you free time to develop a fulfilling life through other aspects of your life. That's why I don't get people who work a ton even though they have tons of money.

THIS! And I also think what makes the the lack of fullfillment so much worse in law is the amount of time, debt, stress and tears it took to get a job that ultimately ends up making you unhappy. It's like you paid money and acrificed so much to get a job you hate that gives you no time for the things about life you love.

[Anonymous User]

I recently made a lateral move, and its like night and day as far as happiness. At my old firm, I was in a practice group I disliked, working with personality types I didn't gel with, and putting in crazy hours for work I had zero interest in doing. In addition, since the firm was mega big, I was stuck doing almost entirely discovery work without any substance or importance. I was nothing but the smallest cog in the wheel.

The new firm is slightly more regional, though still very big. But the result is that the clients and cases are scaled down in size, meaning junior associates are much closer to the core of matters. In just a short time here, I've done more substantive work than I did in two years at my previous firm. Also, I switched practice groups into the area I always wanted to be in. May seem obvious, but enjoying the substance of the work makes it SO much easier to do on a day to day basis. My new area involves way less discovery work, and every day is far more substantive. Also, the culture and "vibe" is very different, and gels with my personality in a way my old firm didn't. Only been here 2 months so far, so maybe I'm still in the honeymoon period, but I'm genuinely enjoying it thus far, especially compared to my old place. Hours, while still fairly rough, are far more reasonable as well.

[dwyf]

Only a 2L here so I'm wondering if there is a major difference between Biglaw in NYC/DC and the other large markets to those in smaller markets. The attorneys I've talked to claim there's a huge difference but I don't know how much truth there is in that

There are some general differences in markets that I've talked to people about, but they are not overriding differences.

The single biggest thing that will affect you is who you are working with/for. Law students never seem to understand this and buy into the firm branding game. Doesn't matter what the logo or summer associate spiel is, the only thing that matters is who you are working for.

Not untrue, but how is a law student supposed to control this?

[kaiser]

Only a 2L here so I'm wondering if there is a major difference between Biglaw in NYC/DC and the other large markets to those in smaller markets. The attorneys I've talked to claim there's a huge difference but I don't know how much truth there is in that

There are some general differences in markets that I've talked to people about, but they are not overriding differences.

The single biggest thing that will affect you is who you are working with/for. Law students never seem to understand this and buy into the firm branding game. Doesn't matter what the logo or summer associate spiel is, the only thing that matters is who you are working for.

Not untrue, but how is a law student supposed to control this?

What you need to do is actually interact with people at the firms during callback interviews. Speak with the staff and secretaries and see what they say (they are the flies on the wall who see everything). Speak candidly with associates with whom you visit and try and get a feel for how people interact.

And once you are there for the summer associate program, interact with as many groups as you can. See how different groups have different vibes and attitudes. I worked with 4 or 5 different groups my summer and it was like night and day which ones were healthy and positive, and which were negative and toxic. There is no firm "culture". At best, there is group "culture", and even that can depend on the specific people with whom you work.

[Anonymous User]

What you need to do is actually interact with people at the firms during callback interviews. Speak with the staff and secretaries and see what they say (they are the flies on the wall who see everything). Speak candidly with associates with whom you visit and try and get a feel for how people interact.

And once you are there for the summer associate program, interact with as many groups as you can. See how different groups have different vibes and attitudes. I worked with 4 or 5 different groups my summer and it was like night and day which ones were healthy and positive, and which were negative and toxic. There is no firm "culture". At best, there is group "culture", and even that can depend on the specific people with whom you work.

This. But the chances are that you won't be able to find out until it's too late, in which case you just have to try to play the office politics game to try to get more work from other people.

You'll see a lot of associates lateral because they can't stand the partners they get stuck with.

[kaiser]

What you need to do is actually interact with people at the firms during callback interviews. Speak with the staff and secretaries and see what they say (they are the flies on the wall who see everything). Speak candidly with associates with whom you visit and try and get a feel for how people interact.

And once you are there for the summer associate program, interact with as many groups as you can. See how different groups have different vibes and attitudes. I worked with 4 or 5 different groups my summer and it was like night and day which ones were healthy and positive, and which were negative and toxic. There is no firm "culture". At best, there is group "culture", and even that can depend on the specific people with whom you work.

This. But the chances are that you won't be able to find out until it's too late, in which case you just have to try to play the office politics game to try to get more work from other people.

You'll see a lot of associates lateral because they can't stand the partners they get stuck with.

+1 from someone who has been there. It really ends up being somewhat of a guessing game (and sometimes the choice isn't even up to you, since the most desirable groups with the best people and cultures may be the most competitive to get into). And as you mentioned, once stuck into a group, you may need to then begin the navigation process of finding the best people to work with, which involves some trial and error. And of course, you may encounter the same problems, in that the best people to work with are the ones that multiple associates are trying to get close to. So it all ends up being an elaborate game with quite a bit of chance involved.

[Anonymous User]

I just want to enjoy the goddamn work is all.

[handsonthewheel]

I just want to enjoy the goddamn work is all.

I thoroughly enjoyed law school. I worked relatively hard, but it was on my own terms. I enjoyed being intellectually challenged (at least until I realized how repetitive analysis in case law can be and got bored). I enjoyed actually interacting with people.

Despite working at some great firms and in some great practices, with some really unique opportunities, my experience so far in practice has been at best a mixed bag; but more often than not it feels at least soul-squeezing if not soul-crushing for one reason or another, be it nature of the work, the hours, the clear expectation that this work is your life and everything else is subordinated, or the personalities.

I actually think the most oppressive thing is the constant feeling that my life is subject to the job, always.

[Anonymous User]

If you enjoyed work, they wouldn't need to pay you.

[kcdc1]

yes because it comes at the cost of ruining your life. look around at the people who make partner - their lives are in shambles compared to the avg educated family. you dont retire at 50 because its always one more year of the money.

I suppose I'm looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I was an SA at a midlaw boutique this summer. The pay is biglaw market, and the hours are typical for a biglaw litigation practice -- 2,200 is expected, 2,600 is not uncommon. People are in the office till midnight when a filing is due, but they also go home for dinner with their families pretty often (and presumably log back on from home as needed). The partners have families, and they seem happy enough. In short, work demands a lot of their time, but they have not sacrificed their lives -- at least not more than professional careers in other fields require.

If my firm is representative of biglaw, the money strikes me as a reasonable return for the time invested. That said, transactional attorneys seem to have a tougher draw than litigators.

[legends159]

I'm at and have been at great biglaw firms, worked on "important" work, and am at a place that is actually on the better side of biglaw.

If I could find a reasonable other job to have, I'd already be gone.

The problem is that all in-house work wants 5-7 years and no one seems to want lawyer refugees. It basically looks like I'll be pursuing another grad degree to retool and then go into public interest/gov't work so as to never confront the student loans.

If you haven't already - start applying for these in-house positions. Those year cutoffs are just suggestions, I know plenty of people who got those same positions with fewer years, sometimes much fewer (myself included). It's how you spin your experience more so than how many years you have under your belt. Obviously 1-2 years is harder to spin but 3+ years and you have real experience.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at and have been at great biglaw firms, worked on "important" work, and am at a place that is actually on the better side of biglaw.

If I could find a reasonable other job to have, I'd already be gone.

The problem is that all in-house work wants 5-7 years and no one seems to want lawyer refugees. It basically looks like I'll be pursuing another grad degree to retool and then go into public interest/gov't work so as to never confront the student loans.

If you haven't already - start applying for these in-house positions. Those year cutoffs are just suggestions, I know plenty of people who got those same positions with fewer years, sometimes much fewer (myself included). It's how you spin your experience more so than how many years you have under your belt. Obviously 1-2 years is harder to spin but 3+ years and you have real experience.

If I find anything that's right up my alley, I apply. I also have gotten pinged by in-house recruiters. Problem is that when I lateraled I changed practices which are different enough that my prior years do not really apply as well to my current gig as the recruiters may have hoped. I'm not terribly far off from in-house viability, and it's definitely one of the lights at the end of the tunnel, but the work I'd do in-house may be similarly uninteresting (but could provide some of the flexibility, reduced hours or even human interaction that I so need).

[Johann]

yes because it comes at the cost of ruining your life. look around at the people who make partner - their lives are in shambles compared to the avg educated family. you dont retire at 50 because its always one more year of the money.

I suppose I'm looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I was an SA at a midlaw boutique this summer. The pay is biglaw market, and the hours are typical for a biglaw litigation practice -- 2,200 is expected, 2,600 is not uncommon. People are in the office till midnight when a filing is due, but they also go home for dinner with their families pretty often (and presumably log back on from home as needed). The partners have families, and they seem happy enough. In short, work demands a lot of their time, but they have not sacrificed their lives -- at least not more than professional careers in other fields require.

If my firm is representative of biglaw, the money strikes me as a reasonable return for the time invested. That said, transactional attorneys seem to have a tougher draw than litigators.

well youre an SA so of course the money strikes you as worth it.

[handsonthewheel]

yes because it comes at the cost of ruining your life. look around at the people who make partner - their lives are in shambles compared to the avg educated family. you dont retire at 50 because its always one more year of the money.

I suppose I'm looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I was an SA at a midlaw boutique this summer. The pay is biglaw market, and the hours are typical for a biglaw litigation practice -- 2,200 is expected, 2,600 is not uncommon. People are in the office till midnight when a filing is due, but they also go home for dinner with their families pretty often (and presumably log back on from home as needed). The partners have families, and they seem happy enough. In short, work demands a lot of their time, but they have not sacrificed their lives -- at least not more than professional careers in other fields require.

If my firm is representative of biglaw, the money strikes me as a reasonable return for the time invested. That said, transactional attorneys seem to have a tougher draw than litigators.

Try to bill (let's split the difference) 2,400 hours as a first and second year associate and see how that goes. There will be many hours in the office you don't bill. There will be many days where you show up early so you can go on that date/out with friends/see your family and you get hit with the 6:30pm assignment which needs to get done ASAP (bonus points if you turned the work in weeks ago to someone who got to it last minute only to ping you with revisions to ruin your night).

Don't get me wrong, it's not totally unrealistic that you can balance some things with a biglaw job. But as a summer associate you did not see the reality of the job. My perspective as a summer associate was nothing like what I experienced in my first years on the job, it just is not comparable and you cannot "see" what associate life is like, you have to experience it.

It certainly is worth it to some people, but I kind of pity those people. My hope was crushed after talking to enough senior associates, hoping to hear "it gets better", who continued to complain about the same things that were rubbing me the wrong way.

[los blancos]

yes because it comes at the cost of ruining your life. look around at the people who make partner - their lives are in shambles compared to the avg educated family. you dont retire at 50 because its always one more year of the money.

I suppose I'm looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I was an SA at a midlaw boutique this summer. The pay is biglaw market, and the hours are typical for a biglaw litigation practice -- 2,200 is expected, 2,600 is not uncommon. People are in the office till midnight when a filing is due, but they also go home for dinner with their families pretty often (and presumably log back on from home as needed). The partners have families, and they seem happy enough. In short, work demands a lot of their time, but they have not sacrificed their lives -- at least not more than professional careers in other fields require.

If my firm is representative of biglaw, the money strikes me as a reasonable return for the time invested. That said, transactional attorneys seem to have a tougher draw than litigators.

well youre an SA so of course the money strikes you as worth it.

There is nothing worse than SAs claiming "2300 hours isnt bad, only 45 billables/week!"

[Phil Brooks]

In biglaw I simply cannot find a single thing beyond money, security and the air with which to over-inflate my ego balloon.

Serious question -- is having the money and security to live in a nice house, send kids to private school, and be positioned for a financially defensible retirement at age 50 not enough? You really have to enjoy the work itself?

I have been educated in entirely public schools and here I am a biglaw associate - I don't think private schools really are something I need to sacrifice my overall happiness to give to any future children. I actually would prefer public schools, albeit ones in decent districts (which cost more money to live in, of course).

Not to derail the conversation, but the United States has a more unequal funding of its public education system than any developed country in the world (i.e. almost exclusively based on local property taxes). There are public schools in the US that receive more money than the top private schools in Canada, UK, etc. So going to public school in the US does not necessarily mean that a person lived a non-privileged life. I wish people would stop assuming that "public school = poor" because it hides the problem of unequally funded public schools.

There is a public interest organization in Philadelphia that is waging an equal protection lawsuit on the idea of unequal public school funding (http://www.elc-pa.org/2015/05/21/school ... est-court/)

Thanks.

[kcdc1]

Try to bill (let's split the difference) 2,400 hours as a first and second year associate and see how that goes. There will be many hours in the office you don't bill. There will be many days where you show up early so you can go on that date/out with friends/see your family and you get hit with the 6:30pm assignment which needs to get done ASAP (bonus points if you turned the work in weeks ago to someone who got to it last minute only to ping you with revisions to ruin your night).

Don't get me wrong, it's not totally unrealistic that you can balance some things with a biglaw job. But as a summer associate you did not see the reality of the job. My perspective as a summer associate was nothing like what I experienced in my first years on the job, it just is not comparable and you cannot "see" what associate life is like, you have to experience it.

FWIW, I working as a summer just as much as the associates were -- was billing at a ~2,600 hour pace. It's a lot of work, and it definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as deadlines approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights, and I had at least one solid recovery day most weekends. You don't have to completely sacrifice your family to work 65 hour weeks. 80+ hours is a different story, but biglaw does not seem to require 80+ hour weeks, at least outside of NYC.

[gk101]

Try to bill (let's split the difference) 2,400 hours as a first and second year associate and see how that goes. There will be many hours in the office you don't bill. There will be many days where you show up early so you can go on that date/out with friends/see your family and you get hit with the 6:30pm assignment which needs to get done ASAP (bonus points if you turned the work in weeks ago to someone who got to it last minute only to ping you with revisions to ruin your night).

Don't get me wrong, it's not totally unrealistic that you can balance some things with a biglaw job. But as a summer associate you did not see the reality of the job. My perspective as a summer associate was nothing like what I experienced in my first years on the job, it just is not comparable and you cannot "see" what associate life is like, you have to experience it.

FWIW, I working as a summer just as much as the associates were -- was billing at a ~2,600 hour pace. It's a lot of work, and it definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights, and I had at least one solid recovery day most weekends. You don't have to completely sacrifice your family to work 65 hour weeks. 80+ hours is a different story, but biglaw does not seem to require 80+ hour weeks, at least outside of NYC.

you are delusional if you think working those hours for a year as a full time associate is the same as working over a summer