Skadden or Simpson? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Received offers from both firms (NY office) and really is a tough choice. Interested in doing corporate (99.9% sure at this point), not sure exactly what type of corporate I want to do, but if I have to choose now I'd pick M&A. I know there are many more considerations when choosing a law firm, and would appreciate people's insight.

[Anonymous User]

For full disclosure, I'm a junior associate at STB, so this is colored a little bit by the STB perspective, but I'm going to try to be as neutral as possible.

Culturally, Skadden is significantly different from the other top NY corporate firms (not just STB). They have a strong "going out" culture, and groups tend to get drinks together multiple nights a week (and this is more of an expectation than an option). Some people love that kind of camaraderie, but others find it off-putting and would rather spend precious non-billing time with family or non-work friends, which may be more difficult at Skadden. STB, by contrast, is probably the least "going out" of all the top corporate firms except Cravath (maybe on a comparable level with DPW and Cleary), though the M&A and Real Estate groups are significantly more into group drinking. This is not to say that STB is not a friendly firm; there's a lot of friendliness and warmth here, in my opinion more so than other firms, just expressed more by helping others out and being nice than by partying with your coworkers.

The sheer size plays a role in culture, too. As a much larger firm, Skadden can be a bit more anonymous, which has its advantages and disadvantages that you can probably imagine. At STB, within a couple of years everyone in your practice area will know you at least somewhat and vice versa. Sheer size prevents that at Skadden, though you'll have a group within your group that you mostly work with in any case.

From a work perspective, Skadden handles an enormous volume of deals. They're just a much larger firm (around 2,000 attorneys I think against around 850 at STB) and consequently do a lot more deals. That said, that means that a lot of the deals Skadden does are relatively small or simple. They handle plenty of large and complex transactions, but one can't sustain a firm of that size on just large deals. This impacts the smaller Skadden offices more than NYC but is overall definitely a difference even in NYC.

STB is a very private-equity focused firm, with around half of our deals by dollar value being PE deals (somewhat more by volume as the sorts of public company deals STB handles tend to be bigger than PE deals). That has its positives (in-house counsel at PE firms are experienced, with realistic expectations about timing on deals and much more insight, whereas public companies do big M&A deals maybe at most once every five years or so and thus don't know nearly as much about how deals work) and negatives (more experienced in-house counsel may mean less opportunity to interact with and guide/hand-hold the in-house counsel at a very junior level). Skadden has a more typical distribution of deals, with most deals being public or non-PE private deals. As noted above, STB's average deal size is far larger than Skadden's, though both handle large and complex deals as well as small deals (mostly on the PE side for STB).

In terms of offices, STB only has a large presence in NYC, Silicon Valley, Hong Kong and London, with smaller presences in some other cities (Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul, Sao Paulo, Los Angeles, Houston, DC). Skadden has a lot more offices generally, both within the US and internationally, and generally much bigger satellite offices. Whether that's good or bad will depend on your professional and personal preferences. I know it's easy to move between or visit other offices while at STB; don't know about Skadden but would guess it's similar there.

STB has a rotation system in corporate, where corporate associates work 9 months in one practice area, 6 months in another practice area, then 6 months in a third practice area before making their final choice of practice group. I think this is a great system because you get a strong feel for different groups before you have to choose one, and STB stands out a bit from other firms for the long rotation periods. I *think* at Skadden, you're a generalist in corporate for a period of time (though someone more knowledgeable can correct me) and then choose a final group, which gives you more flexibility but also doesn't give as strong a sense of what each individual practice group is like.

Hope that helps.

[Anonymous User]

Reviving this thread. Interested in M&A. I know both firms are ranked Band 1 on Chambers, but I've heard that Simpson might be weaker in M&A?? It looks like they've been on big-ticket deals like CVS-Aetna and Microsoft-Nuance, so I'm not sure how to gauge deal flow/reputation.

I liked Simpson a lot more than Skadden from a culture/fit perspective, but don't know if they are on the same tier as CSM/Skadden/S&C for M&A (esp. big pubco deals). Also, I've heard horror stories about Simpson's M&A group...are those true? Is it "bad" compared to other firms' M&A groups, or just more intense/cutthroat than Simpson's other practices? Would appreciate any advice!

[Anonymous User]

For full disclosure, I'm a junior associate at STB, so this is colored a little bit by the STB perspective, but I'm going to try to be as neutral as possible.

Culturally, Skadden is significantly different from the other top NY corporate firms (not just STB). They have a strong "going out" culture, and groups tend to get drinks together multiple nights a week (and this is more of an expectation than an option). Some people love that kind of camaraderie, but others find it off-putting and would rather spend precious non-billing time with family or non-work friends, which may be more difficult at Skadden. STB, by contrast, is probably the least "going out" of all the top corporate firms except Cravath (maybe on a comparable level with DPW and Cleary), though the M&A and Real Estate groups are significantly more into group drinking. This is not to say that STB is not a friendly firm; there's a lot of friendliness and warmth here, in my opinion more so than other firms, just expressed more by helping others out and being nice than by partying with your coworkers.

The sheer size plays a role in culture, too. As a much larger firm, Skadden can be a bit more anonymous, which has its advantages and disadvantages that you can probably imagine. At STB, within a couple of years everyone in your practice area will know you at least somewhat and vice versa. Sheer size prevents that at Skadden, though you'll have a group within your group that you mostly work with in any case.

From a work perspective, Skadden handles an enormous volume of deals. They're just a much larger firm (around 2,000 attorneys I think against around 850 at STB) and consequently do a lot more deals. That said, that means that a lot of the deals Skadden does are relatively small or simple. They handle plenty of large and complex transactions, but one can't sustain a firm of that size on just large deals. This impacts the smaller Skadden offices more than NYC but is overall definitely a difference even in NYC.

STB is a very private-equity focused firm, with around half of our deals by dollar value being PE deals (somewhat more by volume as the sorts of public company deals STB handles tend to be bigger than PE deals). That has its positives (in-house counsel at PE firms are experienced, with realistic expectations about timing on deals and much more insight, whereas public companies do big M&A deals maybe at most once every five years or so and thus don't know nearly as much about how deals work) and negatives (more experienced in-house counsel may mean less opportunity to interact with and guide/hand-hold the in-house counsel at a very junior level). Skadden has a more typical distribution of deals, with most deals being public or non-PE private deals. As noted above, STB's average deal size is far larger than Skadden's, though both handle large and complex deals as well as small deals (mostly on the PE side for STB).

In terms of offices, STB only has a large presence in NYC, Silicon Valley, Hong Kong and London, with smaller presences in some other cities (Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul, Sao Paulo, Los Angeles, Houston, DC). Skadden has a lot more offices generally, both within the US and internationally, and generally much bigger satellite offices. Whether that's good or bad will depend on your professional and personal preferences. I know it's easy to move between or visit other offices while at STB; don't know about Skadden but would guess it's similar there.

STB has a rotation system in corporate, where corporate associates work 9 months in one practice area, 6 months in another practice area, then 6 months in a third practice area before making their final choice of practice group. I think this is a great system because you get a strong feel for different groups before you have to choose one, and STB stands out a bit from other firms for the long rotation periods. I *think* at Skadden, you're a generalist in corporate for a period of time (though someone more knowledgeable can correct me) and then choose a final group, which gives you more flexibility but also doesn't give as strong a sense of what each individual practice group is like.

Hope that helps.

Some of the above is factually untrue, and other statements are pretty misleading.

1. Skadden also has a rotation system in NY, though it's only 2 rotations typically. Def no corporate generalists in the NY office.

2. The "going out" culture that's always cited by non-Skadden associates is pretty misguided. I've never felt pressured to go out at all, and I've never heard of group drinks multiple times a week lol. I think this is a commonly cited point regarding Skadden that just doesn't bear out in reality. Also, standard street knowledge is that DPW and Cleary are less "go-outey" of the V10 and STB is usually cited as squarely within the "go-outey" firms.

3. STB's NY office isn't that much smaller than Skadden's. Yes, Skadden is a larger firm overall, but its satellites are mostly not satellite-sized.

4. The rub of it all is that both STB and Skadden are fantastic firms. STB has a slight edge regarding PE work, but in most other practices (corporate or otherwise), I think Skadden is a bit better (public M&A, tax, lit, RX, etc.)

[Anonymous User]

Reviving this thread. Interested in M&A. I know both firms are ranked Band 1 on Chambers, but I've heard that Simpson might be weaker in M&A?? It looks like they've been on big-ticket deals like CVS-Aetna and Microsoft-Nuance, so I'm not sure how to gauge deal flow/reputation.

I liked Simpson a lot more than Skadden from a culture/fit perspective, but don't know if they are on the same tier as CSM/Skadden/S&C for M&A (esp. big pubco deals). Also, I've heard horror stories about Simpson's M&A group...are those true? Is it "bad" compared to other firms' M&A groups, or just more intense/cutthroat than Simpson's other practices? Would appreciate any advice!

STB is maybe a smidge below the tier of CSM/Skadden/S&C when it comes to M&A overall, but in PE, it has a slight edge. I'd say most M&A groups in the V10 are pretty interchangeable in terms of intensity, mostly bc there's too much work to go around at all these shops.