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Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:57 pm**

If you actually put in 80 hour weeks during your SA, I think the problem may be you, not the job. At my firm, nobody ever did anything like that and it would not have been smiled upon if they did.

It sounds like you don't actually like law. You have no interest in any legal position except partner at a biglaw firm. Do you actually want to be a partner or do you just want to sit on top of a mountain? I think you need to seriously evaluate your career options and consider what you want out of life.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:00 pm**

Specifically, any lawyers out there who were "star" summers/juniors?

oh boy

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:02 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:I'm debating between going back to my firm and switching to something else entirely (likely consulting). Looking for advice and wisdom from the TLS community, especially from practicing lawyers.

I summered at a firm that is renown for lit. Ended up building a solid reputation from my work. Evaluations were very glowing, and partners kept asking for me to do work on other assignments, etc. Thing is, I don't really know if I did anything special. I feel as if I might have just "outworked" others in my class, as opposed to being "naturally talented" (whatever that means in the biglaw context).

My outlook now on long-term in biglaw: The only thing I would like is to make partner. I'm a striver and care about $/prestige (things I would never admit w/o being anon, of course). If not at this firm, I'd like to make partner at a slightly less prestigious firm. Through the summer, I've gotten a small glimpse of how bad biglaw life can be. There were a couple weeks where I put in around 80 hours with only about 55 hours of billable work (a lot of social events, a lot of me being an idiot and taking longer on things than I should, which I actually don't know if I can change...), and those were miserable weeks. So I'm making no mistake about it, I know the climb to partnership would be horrible, but something about me knows that if I viewed it as a realistic goal, I could slog through it. The problem of course, is that I DON'T view it as realistic. Despite getting good reviews and whatnot, I have read/heard all the advice about just how impossible it is to make partner at a big firm nowadays. Additionally, a part of me is paranoid and thinks that most of those good reviews are overly flattering. Again, I don't feel as if I did anything outstanding, just perhaps solid work.

So, if I am unable to make it to the top of biglaw, then no other legal options really interest me. I don't want to work in-house and I don't care for fed. gov. work. That's why I'm somewhat interested in consulting, and considering interviewing for MBB. At least with consulting, I figured if I burn out I would have an in-house strategy/business position available, and I would rather do biz dev or operations work than legal work in a corp if it would be for the same pay and hours. I have an interview lined up for one of them and am deciding whether or not to go, so any advice would be appreciated. Specifically, any lawyers out there who were "star" summers/juniors? Advice to share about how realistic partnership prospects are in that situation? Thanks to all for reading my long-winded ramblings.

What's going on with your debt. Do you owe a lot of money? If so, I'd suck it up and pull down some cash doing biglaw for a bit.

You have extremely limited insight into biglaw coming off your SA position, regardless of whether you overworked yourself for a couple weeks or not, but yeah, biglaw is a terrible long term goal. The fact that you're even talking about partnership prospects indicates that you're at a very early/naïve stage of considering what your career will look like.

Talk to more lawyers, explore externships if you can, keep your eyes open, and if you see a chance to avoid biglaw AND your debt doesn't keep you from taking it, go for it.

Anonymous User wrote:
Specifically, any lawyers out there who were "star" summers/juniors?
oh boy

truly precious.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:08 pm**

how do you know you're a "star"?

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:09 pm**

there is no such thing as a star summer

biglaw partners' lives suck too

oh noooo 80 hour weeks the horror; imagine having to do that on your vacation because you are the partner and there is nobody who can "cover" for you

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:12 pm**

bruinfan10 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm debating between going back to my firm and switching to something else entirely (likely consulting). Looking for advice and wisdom from the TLS community, especially from practicing lawyers.

I summered at a firm that is renown for lit. Ended up building a solid reputation from my work. Evaluations were very glowing, and partners kept asking for me to do work on other assignments, etc. Thing is, I don't really know if I did anything special. I feel as if I might have just "outworked" others in my class, as opposed to being "naturally talented" (whatever that means in the biglaw context).

My outlook now on long-term in biglaw: The only thing I would like is to make partner. I'm a striver and care about $/prestige (things I would never admit w/o being anon, of course). If not at this firm, I'd like to make partner at a slightly less prestigious firm. Through the summer, I've gotten a small glimpse of how bad biglaw life can be. There were a couple weeks where I put in around 80 hours with only about 55 hours of billable work (a lot of social events, a lot of me being an idiot and taking longer on things than I should, which I actually don't know if I can change...), and those were miserable weeks. So I'm making no mistake about it, I know the climb to partnership would be horrible, but something about me knows that if I viewed it as a realistic goal, I could slog through it. The problem of course, is that I DON'T view it as realistic. Despite getting good reviews and whatnot, I have read/heard all the advice about just how impossible it is to make partner at a big firm nowadays. Additionally, a part of me is paranoid and thinks that most of those good reviews are overly flattering. Again, I don't feel as if I did anything outstanding, just perhaps solid work.

So, if I am unable to make it to the top of biglaw, then no other legal options really interest me. I don't want to work in-house and I don't care for fed. gov. work. That's why I'm somewhat interested in consulting, and considering interviewing for MBB. At least with consulting, I figured if I burn out I would have an in-house strategy/business position available, and I would rather do biz dev or operations work than legal work in a corp if it would be for the same pay and hours. I have an interview lined up for one of them and am deciding whether or not to go, so any advice would be appreciated. Specifically, any lawyers out there who were "star" summers/juniors? Advice to share about how realistic partnership prospects are in that situation? Thanks to all for reading my long-winded ramblings.
What's going on with your debt. Do you owe a lot of money? If so, I'd suck it up and pull down some cash doing biglaw for a bit.

You have extremely limited insight into biglaw coming off your SA position, regardless of whether you overworked yourself for a couple weeks or not, but yeah, biglaw is a terrible long term goal. The fact that you're even talking about partnership prospects indicates that you're at a very early/naïve stage of considering what your career will look like.

Talk to more lawyers, explore externships if you can, keep your eyes open, and if you see a chance to avoid biglaw AND your debt doesn't keep you from taking it, go for it.

Anonymous User wrote:
Specifically, any lawyers out there who were "star" summers/juniors?
oh boy
truly precious.

This is helpful and kinda what I was afraid of. I would like to just take the biglaw offer and not prep for consulting interviews, but from everything that I see it is just a better idea to go that route if I don't have a burning passion for lit.

And regarding the "star" junior line, I know it sounds ridiculous, but what I mean to say is how do the good performers who somehow grind their way through 8-10 years end up doing in biglaw? Is it still overwhelmingly out to gov or in-house somewhere? Or do the majority lateral and make partner elsewhere, and even some at their original firms? There should be answers to this question, albeit anecdotes, but I'd be curious to hear them.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:17 pm**

to all who are rightfully skewering my "star" summer/junior line, I appreciate the responses even though they are sarcastic. I obviously can't go into details but reviews were about as good as they can possibly be. But I'm paranoid/cynical and I figured that, even if they were great reviews for a summer, it probably doesn't mean jack long-term.

I get that it's natural for actual practicing lawyers to roll their eyes at what I wrote, and I think that's actually really helpful. If possible though, can someone elaborate on just why it's so ridiculous?

TLDR: I think I'm convincing myself to take the consulting interview in spite of having a strong summer at a firm I actually like. Is this a good/bad idea?

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:22 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:to all who are rightfully skewering my "star" summer/junior line, I appreciate the responses even though they are sarcastic. I obviously can't go into details but reviews were about as good as they can possibly be. But I'm paranoid/cynical and I figured that, even if they were great reviews for a summer, it probably doesn't mean jack long-term.

I get that it's natural for actual practicing lawyers to roll their eyes at what I wrote, and I think that's actually really helpful. If possible though, can someone elaborate on just why it's so ridiculous?

TLDR: I think I'm convincing myself to take the consulting interview in spite of having a strong summer at a firm I actually like. Is this a good/bad idea?

It's ridiculous because the idea that you did well over summer has no bearing, whatsoever, on if you will make partner. It's entirely irrelevant outside of getting your offer and perhaps allowing you to get your pick of practice groups.

Sustaining those hours during a 10 week SA is great. Sustaining that level of work over 365 days a year, when your work is actually used and relied upon? Completely different game.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:27 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:to all who are rightfully skewering my "star" summer/junior line, I appreciate the responses even though they are sarcastic. I obviously can't go into details but reviews were about as good as they can possibly be. But I'm paranoid/cynical and I figured that, even if they were great reviews for a summer, it probably doesn't mean jack long-term.

I get that it's natural for actual practicing lawyers to roll their eyes at what I wrote, and I think that's actually really helpful. If possible though, can someone elaborate on just why it's so ridiculous?

TLDR: I think I'm convincing myself to take the consulting interview in spite of having a strong summer at a firm I actually like. Is this a good/bad idea?
It's ridiculous because the idea that you did well over summer has no bearing, whatsoever, on if you will make partner. It's entirely irrelevant outside of getting your offer and perhaps allowing you to get your pick of practice groups.

Sustaining those hours during a 10 week SA is great. Sustaining that level of work over 365 days a year, when your work is actually used and relied upon? Completely different game.

OP here: This is exactly what I figured and needed to hear. The reason why I pulled those long weeks were actually b/c I had assignments going to the client on short notice and I felt a huge amount of pressure. I have tons of doubt as to whether I could sustain this long-term, especially with having to juggle multiple projects, which I never had to do as a summer. I appreciate the response.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:03 pm**

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:41 pm**

ClubberLang wrote:

180

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:55 pm**

star junior checking in. fire away.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:59 pm**

JohannDeMann wrote:star junior checking in. fire away.

(declines all work on way to 1200 billables for the year)

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:05 pm**

PennBull wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:star junior checking in. fire away.
(declines all work on way to 1200 billables for the year)

sounds just like the star attorney this OP deserves

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:26 pm**

"Renown for lit"? but did you do corporate? I'm assuming yes since you're interested in consulting/business. I'm guessing if it was lit heavy but you cared about traditional signaling mechanisms, it's like Paul Weiss or something, since most of the other firms of that status are corporate-heavy. Honestly, to make partner in corporate,maybe it's more about the grind. But from what I've seen, to make partner at the very best firms in litigation, your trajectory is a little more complicated. Almost everyone clerks for 1-2 years and many spend some time in the federal government, usually as AUSAs, or at another firm. The litigation partnership ranks at large firms in NYC are filled with former prosecutors, and the partnership ranks at slightly less well known practices are filled with former V5 midlevels. I don't think you "plan" on becoming partner; you see where your career takes you.

I would base this decision off of whether I actually liked legal work, or whether I'd prefer strategy & operations. It's a very different kind of work and I think you should make that central to your decision.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:58 pm**

You sound like you're going to be unhappy pretty much no matter what you do.

Edit, actually you just sound like you're going to be unhappy in law.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:21 pm**

It's possible to be a standout summer or junior associate, especially in a smaller office, but it's obviously no guarantee of making partner. Those people tend to have all of the following traits: (1) excellent pedigree; (2) workhorse personality/high pain tolerance; (3) good judgment; (4) ability to churn out useful and mistake-free work relatively efficiently. This stuff does get you noticed, and it can have a real effect on staffing and your early progression at the firm. Again, it won't put you on the partnership track, but it can put you in a position where people trust you to write first drafts of motions, take depositions of minor witnesses, be the junior associate on a trial team, and do other substantive tasks as a first or second-year associate. The difference between being that person and the person who reviews documents/cite-checks/makes binders for 2000+ hours a year is striking.

Don't have strong thoughts on the rest of the OP.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:24 pm**

JohannDeMann wrote:star junior checking in. fire away.

questions thread pls

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:58 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:It's possible to be a standout summer or junior associate, especially in a smaller office, but it's obviously no guarantee of making partner. Those people tend to have all of the following traits: (1) excellent pedigree; (2) workhorse personality/high pain tolerance; (3) good judgment; (4) ability to churn out useful and mistake-free work relatively efficiently. This stuff does get you noticed, and it can have a real effect on staffing and your early progression at the firm. Again, it won't put you on the partnership track, but it can put you in a position where people trust you to write first drafts of motions, take depositions of minor witnesses, be the junior associate on a trial team, and do other substantive tasks as a first or second-year associate. The difference between being that person and the person who reviews documents/cite-checks/makes binders for 2000+ hours a year is striking.

Don't have strong thoughts on the rest of the OP.

I can't possible see how the bolded could matter for the purposes of this discussion.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:27 pm**

jbagelboy wrote:"Renown for lit"? but did you do corporate? I'm assuming yes since you're interested in consulting/business. I'm guessing if it was lit heavy but you cared about traditional signaling mechanisms, it's like Paul Weiss or something, since most of the other firms of that status are corporate-heavy. Honestly, to make partner in corporate,maybe it's more about the grind. But from what I've seen, to make partner at the very best firms in litigation, your trajectory is a little more complicated. Almost everyone clerks for 1-2 years and many spend some time in the federal government, usually as AUSAs, or at another firm. The litigation partnership ranks at large firms in NYC are filled with former prosecutors, and the partnership ranks at slightly less well known practices are filled with former V5 midlevels. I don't think you "plan" on becoming partner; you see where your career takes you.

I would base this decision off of whether I actually liked legal work, or whether I'd prefer strategy & operations. It's a very different kind of work and I think you should make that central to your decision.

I actually did lit. But yes, I have some interest in strategy/biz. And I agree with your views. It seems like corp it's a grind and also how well you network and bring in business. With lit it seems to be based more on the substance of your work and legal accomplishments. Definitely generalizations, but it's something you can see from browsing through partner profiles from various firms.

And thanks to the other anon poster for listing those traits. To everyone else, I'm happy you guys are having fun, but if you read my post you can see that I'm pretty clearly not thinking of myself as partner material (or a lion, awesome pic though btw). In fact, I think more than anything I'm looking for confirmation that an unexpectedly strong performance as a summer means nothing in terms of making partner so that I can put more focus on prepping for consulting.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:30 pm**

dixiecupdrinking wrote:You sound like you're going to be unhappy pretty much no matter what you do.

Edit, actually you just sound like you're going to be unhappy in law.

No, I fully agree. I definitely harbor a fair amount of self-loathing. I don't want to reveal too much but I'm a standard overachiever striver....it's not a happy life. I do think corp strategy seems more interesting than biglaw lit though

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:21 pm**

I've never heard of an "unexpectedly strong performance" for a summer. What were some of your accomplishments?

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:47 pm**

I could PM you if you promise not to re-post

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:54 pm**

good God, i forgot how insufferable SAs can be

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