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Bump. Very curious to hear no-offer stories.

The firm cited "bad fit" and "too many footnotes in a memo." In reality, I think that my personality did not click well with one of the hiring partners. Also, I worked 9 to 6 most days, while some of the other SAs stayed in the office 7am to 10pm every day. I didn't think this was necessary, and wanted to enjoy my summer, but obviously the market has changed and the summer associate offer is no longer as certain as it used to be.
In hindsight, I should have tried to kiss ass more with the partner who I didn't get along with, and I should have cancelled my social life in order to work 12 hour days every day. However, hindsight is 20/20 and life goes on.
If you have an SA lined up, you should take this story and realize that since the 07'-08' financial collapse, firms are more cautious about their bottom line and they expect SAs to work like full time associates. While it used to be the case that you could just show up, do decent work, and get an offer, that is no longer the case.

Anonymous User wrote:"too many footnotes in a memo."

Sounds like they were looking for an excuse. Sorry to hear about that. You're right about the market change. Imagine having to live that type of life for several years. It's not as glamorous as some make it out to be. With all that said, shall you participate in 3L OCI or go a different route?

One dude got no-offered/cold-offered in my office thus far. No one knows why - he was intelligent, hard-working, and chill. A little socially awkward, but not real bad. Didn't get drunk at events or do stupid stuff. We're all a pretty close summer class so we all know each other and are pretty shocked.

Best guess is that he just was a little too awkward socially and just got on the wrong side of a partner who decided he wasn't a good fit.

Anonymous User wrote:
Best guess is that he just was a little too awkward socially and just got on the wrong side of a partner who decided he wasn't a good fit.

Can you give examples of what this means? What specifically made him a little socially awkward?

Anonymous User wrote:One dude got no-offered/cold-offered in my office thus far. No one knows why - he was intelligent, hard-working, and chill. A little socially awkward, but not real bad. Didn't get drunk at events or do stupid stuff. We're all a pretty close summer class so we all know each other and are pretty shocked.

Best guess is that he just was a little too awkward socially and just got on the wrong side of a partner who decided he wasn't a good fit.

Gotta be something else. A little too awkward seems par for the course for big law and law in general. Got examples?

Anonymous User wrote:The firm cited "bad fit" and "too many footnotes in a memo." In reality, I think that my personality did not click well with one of the hiring partners. Also, I worked 9 to 6 most days, while some of the other SAs stayed in the office 7am to 10pm every day. I didn't think this was necessary, and wanted to enjoy my summer, but obviously the market has changed and the summer associate offer is no longer as certain as it used to be.
In hindsight, I should have tried to kiss ass more with the partner who I didn't get along with, and I should have cancelled my social life in order to work 12 hour days every day. However, hindsight is 20/20 and life goes on.
If you have an SA lined up, you should take this story and realize that since the 07'-08' financial collapse, firms are more cautious about their bottom line and they expect SAs to work like full time associates. While it used to be the case that you could just show up, do decent work, and get an offer, that is no longer the case.

It depends a lot on the firm. There are definitely still places where work is an after-thought and the summer program is a hilarious recruiting exercise with few expectations. I can tell you for a fact that at my old firm any summer associate trying to work long hours was viewed as "not getting it" culturally.

Some firms care about 100% offer rater more than anything else. If your firm is not like that then you should bust ass and make sacrifices to make sure you get a job at the end of the summer.

Sorry for anyone with no offers. If it's any solace, much of the time there isn't much you could have done differently. It's just a numbers game. And I agree with TSL; I saw a SA in the office over a weekend and more than anything it made me skeptical of him.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:
Best guess is that he just was a little too awkward socially and just got on the wrong side of a partner who decided he wasn't a good fit.

Can you give examples of what this means? What specifically made him a little socially awkward?

OP of this top comment. It's hard to say. He was very nice but kind of gave the impression that he was an introvert and didn't always know how to make small talk like a normal person. And to compensate he would just keep talking and occasionally go on tangents that people couldn't relate to or would just make the convo awkward. But that was super rare and really minor compared to how dumb the rest of us could be at times.

No idea about work product but the work was always fairly unimportant and easy so I doubt there was a significant problem if we never heard about it before the no-offer.

That must be it then. All it probably took was him having one awkward conversation with a partner. The partner perhaps thought "shit I don't want to be working with this stiff everyday" and boom...no offer.

Not me, but +1 at our firm for smart, nice, and hard working but socially awkward (going down tangents in conversation that nobody gives a shit about far too often). Cold offer.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a hard time believing people were no-offered for being mildly awkward. I would imagine there are work-product issues that you just aren't privy to.

First Offense wrote:Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a hard time believing people were no-offered for being mildly awkward. I would imagine there are work-product issues that you just aren't privy to.

This has been my thought as well, but how badly can you screw up summer work? It is incredibly basic and unimportant stuff.

First Offense wrote:Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a hard time believing people were no-offered for being mildly awkward. I would imagine there are work-product issues that you just aren't privy to.

Or work coordination issues. Seems like high work "quality" might be less important sometimes than timely submission, proper level of communication with assigning attorneys, not making someones life more difficult. I can see how inability to converse coherently or appropriately could cascade into failure to understand the nature of an assignment or deadline or take a hint about how to communicate with your superiors, even if your research/writing is strong enough and you do the work.

First Offense wrote:Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a hard time believing people were no-offered for being mildly awkward. I would imagine there are work-product issues that you just aren't privy to.

People do stuff like miss deadlines, rush and turn in work product with lots of errors, or are incredibly unsure and contacting the person who gave the assignment a million times.

jbagelboy wrote:

First Offense wrote:Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a hard time believing people were no-offered for being mildly awkward. I would imagine there are work-product issues that you just aren't privy to.

Or work coordination issues. Seems like high work "quality" might be less important sometimes than timely submission, proper level of communication with assigning attorneys, not making someones life more difficult. I can see how inability to converse coherently or appropriately could cascade into failure to understand the nature of an assignment or deadline or take a hint about how to communicate with your superiors, even if your research/writing is strong enough and you do the work.

Yeah - that's fair. The social awkwardness that prevents them from being good at small-talk could also prevent them from making sure they have the proper format for the assignment/expectations/etc. Unless it's a firm that's looking to no-offer some summers, though, I doubt that you're going to get no-offered because you suck at small talk in the elevator.

Desert Fox wrote:

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Sorry for anyone with no offers. If it's any solace, much of the time there isn't much you could have done differently. It's just a numbers game. And I agree with TSL; I saw a SA in the office over a weekend and more than anything it made me skeptical of him.

I disagree. Most of the time it's not a numbers game.

If you're at a 100% firm, you have to fuck up royally to get no-offered. If you're at a firm that over hired it may be that a couple summers are getting no-offered for silly reasons. It totally depends where you are but I'd guess it's usually one or the other -- definitely your fault or barely your fault.

I wouldn't be surprised to see someone who is mildly awkward / didn't make any big mistakes absolutely cunt punch business etiquette in an email to a partner.

Maybe it’s different at other firms but I [JA] have been asked a number of times about what I think about our summers. I highlight the ones I think are catching on and doing their assignments and avoid commenting on the pedestrian ones. My advice to summers is to ask whatever it is you need to know and then exit quietly.

First Offense wrote:Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a hard time believing people were no-offered for being mildly awkward. I would imagine there are work-product issues that you just aren't privy to.

This is credited. I'm a V20 senior associate and "mildly awkward" alone will not hurt you. Actually, there are even some partners with whom being an outgoing, nonchalant, bro will hurt you. But I guarantee there is always something else going on for the people who get no offered but seem "nice, smart, and mildly awkward." For one thing, you'd be surprised how often there is a disconnect between how someone "seems" in conversation and their work product. Another common issue (and a reason I've seen no-offers given) is that someone will be fine socially, smart, and the work product will even be ok, but they dismiss or explain away all attempts at constructive criticism. It makes attorneys furious when they try to help you and the first words out of your mouth in response are, "But I was just...."

Maybe for v20 firms, but those that are V50+, esp if in a non major market or satellite office, will no-offer for random reasons too.

I'm at "100%" offer firm but I'm still worried about that cold offer. Is one or two very awkward conversations with partners enough for a cold offer?