law firm bans ivy grads Forum

[Anonymous User]

Haters gonna hate. There is some validity to his arguments, but I completely disagree that T14 students don't work hard. Yes, there are a few bad apples or people with more privileges. But there are plenty of hard-working students in T14 that came from nothing. Also, comparing grades at T14 and other schools is not reflective of anything.

[timmyd]

I mean, I don't think theres a right answer with respect to comparisons. Obviously, the ideal is top of the class at a high ranked school. Outside of that, there are some employers that prefer top of class as opposed to just going to a good school and not doing well. While others simply believe that students that are admitted into certain schools are inherently better than even the top 5% of students at other lower ranked schools. Theres really no way to know which view is correct. I would take the higher ranked kid from the lower ranked school, but thats just because I came from a low ranked school myself.

[sandwhich]

wooo go Chicago

Flying under the radar like a boss

[papercut]

wooo go Chicago

Flying under the radar like a boss

Well this guy does seem to have a soft spot for blue-collar law students, and so I'm sure that he extends his sympathies to state schools.

[BigZuck]

Haters gonna hate. There is some validity to his arguments, but I completely disagree that T14 students don't work hard. Yes, there are a few bad apples or people with more privileges. But there are plenty of hard-working students in T14 that came from nothing. Also, comparing grades at T14 and other schools is not reflective of anything.

Good point Anon

[rnoodles]

Three Things:

1) I may be missing it myself (and am admittedly quite nitpicky in this respect), but he forgot to include a "second" point. Dude straight up talked about hiring the most diligent and hardworking people he could, and he went from "first" to "third." Again, this is pretty petty on my fault, but I found it funny (if I myself didn't overlook it).

2) He straight up threw shade at Yale. #shotsfired

3) Like the above TLSer, I don't agree at all that kids in the T14 don't work hard for their grades. That's just baseless. You can very, very easily distinguish high achievers at any law school through a variety of ways. Even then, sure some students may not have the highest grades but they shine in other respects (e.g. being a recipient of a prestigious pro bono award/scholarship at their school). Same could be said in reverse, where a student has high grades but virtually nothing else (e.g. maybe he/she just wasn't interested in law review or didn't have the time to do it, not because he/she is too lazy). I don't mean to take away anything from anyone. Top 1-5% at any law school, irrespective of rank or tier, is highly commendable. I just don't think it's entirely fair, if at all, to criticize others who worked just as hard to get into Tier 1, T25, or T14 schools.

[ManoftheHour]

Nice. I get a chance.

[tyrant_flycatcher]

Three Things:

1) I may be missing it myself (and am admittedly quite nitpicky in this respect), but he forgot to include a "second" point. Dude straight up talked about hiring the most diligent and hardworking people he could, and he went from "first" to "third." Again, this is pretty petty on my fault, but I found it funny (if I myself didn't overlook it).

Secondly, many of these law schools either fail to rank their students or do not even grade them at all.

You must be bottom 1/3 at a T14

[JonTheMandamus]

Edit: This makes some sense for the general hiring thought process. I'll have to hope that the writer is aware of some of the assumptions that were made, even though they weren't mentioned in the article.

[stego]

Does the person who finished last in the class at Yale regret going to law school?

[Elston Gunn]

Does the person who finished last in the class at Yale regret going to law school?

almost certainly yes, but the question has the causation backwards

[Big Dog]

methinks that the author does protest too much. The title of his article could easily read: we don't recruit at Ivy law schools because they turn us down, so it ain't worth our time and expense. Instead, we can only attract (and/or afford?) TTT students, so we recruit at those schools. Of course, that type of (truth?) statement wouldn't make his clients very comfortable.

First, the top students from these law schools have no interest in applying for a job at our firm.

[jchiles]

Nothing about that thunderdome hiring process sounds appealing.

[Serett]

Alternate take: HuffPo provides free advertising to small shitlaw firm

Really, though, this entire article is built on a murky foundation, even ignoring that top students don't want to go there in the first place. It all comes down to the claim, "[w]e want lawyers who have competed for three years for the top grades," but the thing is, the competition has been going on for far longer than three years. It's a false timeline. Generally, a student doesn't get into Yale unless s/he has out-competed the students at every other school through undergrad, and high school, and so on up and down the line. And uniformly, with the option between Yale and a TTTT, those individuals aren't choosing the TTTT, and they're then competing against similar achievers because they've already 'beaten' (to use the author's competition rhetoric, not my own) everyone else. This author is trying to portray the sifting process as beginning far later than it does.

[jingosaur]

This firm taking a stance against hiring ivy league graduates is like me taking a stance against dating supermodels

[Anonymous User]

Posted earlier this year to one of the schools he disclaims in that article:

ALBPC is hiring two summer associates for the summer of 2015. We recommend visiting our website for in depth information about our firm but the below explains more about the summer experience and the firm in general. www.Alblawfirm.com. We solely fill our young attorney positions from our summer associate and fall and spring extern classes. We choose the most talented applicants. When interviewing candidates for these positions, we look to see whether they have the potential to be great at our firm. Once we hire someone, the training, mentoring and teaching never stops. We strive for greatness in everything we do and expect our interns to do the same. We encourage you to express your opinions and share your ideas to improve our work.

Whether it be our mentoring, the Thursday afternoon in house training, the active placement into exciting and fruitful cases or deals, or the community atmosphere of the firm our programs have worked in making Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. not only the home of one of the best internship, externship or semester or summer programs available, but maybe the best company in New York to live out ones legal career or any career.

Dedicated to Being the Best Firm in New York
Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. is dedicated to being the best real estate law firm in New York. Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. owes much of its visible success to its less visible but equally important success in recruiting some of the finest professionals and paraprofessionals in the entire real estate industry. As aggressive as Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. is in the courtroom and at the negotiating table, it is equally so in staffing for its clients long term needs and goals. The firm maintains training programs that in some cases reach as far down as high school and as high up as partnerships in competing firms. Interns at Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. have gone on to become highly respected members of the real estate legal community. The firm aggressively recruits from other firms to bring the talents of both the sharpest minds and the most seasoned professionals and paraprofessionals to every matter. The staff works in tandem to provide the highest quality of legal analysis, drafting, advocacy, and absolutely unrivaled client care. The firms famed 24 hour rule requires that all client inquiries, whether by phone or email, be returned within 24 hours a standard applied with equal rigor to all attorneys and staff.

Prerequisite for Joining Our Team: Greatness
At each interview we explain that this law firm is only for great people and that those that do not desire to reach for greatness should not apply for a position. Greatness, as we see it, is an inner motivation to treat every task and every job like it is the most important matter on earth. Greatness does not accept defeat but constantly attempts to use every setback as an opportunity for self-improvement, leading inevitably to greater and greater success in achieving our clients goals. Greatness does not believe in surrender; it uses adversity and sacrifice as challenges to be overcome by persistence and endurance. Greatness does not believe in excuses. Greatness rewards itself by the satisfaction derived from working tirelessly, pressing on until victory has been achieved regardless of the struggle.

Superior Compensation
Besides superior compensation, our attorneys participate in a revenue sharing program, thereby permitting an unlimited means of compensation based on performance. Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. includes an expansive benefits package including 401k, three-month paid maternity leave, 80 percent off gym membership to Equinox and a flexible, first-class working environment with built-in flexibility to accommodate our staff members needs and those of their families.
In addition to monetary compensation, every other week the firm indulges in Spa Fridays where employees receive a complimentary manicure or massage in the office. In years past, the firm has sent employees on an all expenses paid trip to a tropical destination as a reward to the firm for successful achievements. The firm celebrates all meaningful events such as birthdays, engagements, big victories and when new attorneys pass the bar.

Not Merely a Job, a Career
Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. is growing and looking toward the future, and providing enormous opportunities and rewards for outstanding lawyers and staff members of all ages and experience.

We choose the most talented applicants. When interviewing candidates for these positions, we look to see whether they have the potential to be great at our firm. Once we hire someone, the training, mentoring and teaching never stops. We strive for greatness in everything we do and expect our interns to do the same. We encourage you to express your opinions and share your ideas to improve our work.

The Best Externship/Internship/Summer Associate Program in the Country

No law firm in New York has produced a better internship and externship program in the country and this is proven by the number of attorneys who started as interns and then summer associates and many years later are the leading attorneys in their profession. Many of these attorneys have received the highest law firm awards, including best law firm by Best Lawyers, Leading Real Estate Lawyer for Chambers USA, nine Super Lawyers and Rising Stars by Super Lawyers, Bar Register of Preeminent Lawyers and highest possible ranking in both Legal Ability & Ethical Standards by Martindale-Hubbell. For our size, we have more externs that became full time attorneys and then Super Lawyers than any other firm in the country.

The Numbers

Over 80 percent of our externs either received full time employment with our firm or we assisted in placing with the judiciary or finding other employment with another law firm.
In the past five years, Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. has hired nine law school interns full-time after graduation.
More than half our attorneys, including several partners, are under the age of 40.
We have more externs that become full-time attorneys and then Super Lawyers than any other firm in the country

The Training

Our interns become lawyers in training and are part of the legal team and learn on the case or deal. Being assigned to active cases and made part of the team has given externs and interns the ability to produce amazing results. Only the very best law school students will make it at Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. as we are considered among the best, if not the best, real estate law firm in New York City. Because Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. practices only one type of law, all of our associates rapidly become experts. Our externs never make coffee or copies. We have exciting cases that require hard work and sweat as well as the smartest most aggressive, passionate, loyal and committed students who are ready to change the world one real estate case at a time. Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. has some of the most challenging and most high profile cases in the nation where staff expertise really does make a difference for the client, the community and, sometimes, the nation.

[rnoodles]

Three Things:

1) I may be missing it myself (and am admittedly quite nitpicky in this respect), but he forgot to include a "second" point. Dude straight up talked about hiring the most diligent and hardworking people he could, and he went from "first" to "third." Again, this is pretty petty on my fault, but I found it funny (if I myself didn't overlook it).

Secondly, many of these law schools either fail to rank their students or do not even grade them at all.

You must be bottom 1/3 at a T14

Guess I'm not cut out for lawyering bro.

[beautyistruth]

Over 80 percent of our externs either received full time employment with our firm or we assisted in placing with the judiciary or finding other employment with another law firm.

Uh... ouch.

[registering]

Glassdoor salaries indicate that interns get paid $10/hr and attorneys ~$80K/yr (not sure about seniority). I've seen quite a few government internships that pay more than this.

It's shameless publicity, but I have to think he might have a point. The people from Ivy schools who end up applying for his firm probably aren't turning down V5s to work for him. If he's picking from bottom 10% T14 (or someone ranked higher who must have had another reason for striking out) vs top 5-10% TT I don't think it's too controversial to say that he'd prefer the latter. Whether or not grades correlate well with work ethic/intellect/ability to be a lawyer is a different issue, but probably not so much when you deal with extremes like that.

[Kinky John]

Over 80 percent of our externs either received full time employment with our firm or we assisted in placing with the judiciary or finding other employment with another law firm.

Uh... ouch.

Does that mean a bit less than 20% of their externs are still stuck in the building somewhere because they didn't show them where the door was aka assist them in finding employment elsewhere?

[chuckbass]

Adam Leitman Bailey is just one guy's full name lololol

[beautyistruth]

Over 80 percent of our externs either received full time employment with our firm or we assisted in placing with the judiciary or finding other employment with another law firm.

Uh... ouch.

Does that mean a bit less than 20% of their externs are still stuck in the building somewhere because they didn't show them where the door was aka assist them in finding employment elsewhere?

That is a very Kafka-esque mental image.

[JonTheMandamus]

This firm taking a stance against hiring ivy league graduates is like me taking a stance against dating supermodels

because inner beauty has had to compete more for success than outer beauty?

[sephrenia300]

This was definitely on my school's symplicity and I remember lolling HARD at the repeated definitions for GREATNESS!!!

I half expected geocities-style fireworks to be exploding all over the background.

Posted earlier this year to one of the schools he disclaims in that article:

ALBPC is hiring two summer associates for the summer of 2015. We recommend visiting our website for in depth information about our firm but the below explains more about the summer experience and the firm in general. http://www.Alblawfirm.com. We solely fill our young attorney positions from our summer associate and fall and spring extern classes. We choose the most talented applicants. When interviewing candidates for these positions, we look to see whether they have the potential to be great at our firm. Once we hire someone, the training, mentoring and teaching never stops. We strive for greatness in everything we do and expect our interns to do the same. We encourage you to express your opinions and share your ideas to improve our work.

Whether it be our mentoring, the Thursday afternoon in house training, the active placement into exciting and fruitful cases or deals, or the community atmosphere of the firm our programs have worked in making Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. not only the home of one of the best internship, externship or semester or summer programs available, but maybe the best company in New York to live out ones legal career or any career.

Dedicated to Being the Best Firm in New York
Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. is dedicated to being the best real estate law firm in New York. Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. owes much of its visible success to its less visible but equally important success in recruiting some of the finest professionals and paraprofessionals in the entire real estate industry. As aggressive as Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. is in the courtroom and at the negotiating table, it is equally so in staffing for its clients long term needs and goals. The firm maintains training programs that in some cases reach as far down as high school and as high up as partnerships in competing firms. Interns at Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. have gone on to become highly respected members of the real estate legal community. The firm aggressively recruits from other firms to bring the talents of both the sharpest minds and the most seasoned professionals and paraprofessionals to every matter. The staff works in tandem to provide the highest quality of legal analysis, drafting, advocacy, and absolutely unrivaled client care. The firms famed 24 hour rule requires that all client inquiries, whether by phone or email, be returned within 24 hours a standard applied with equal rigor to all attorneys and staff.

Prerequisite for Joining Our Team: Greatness
At each interview we explain that this law firm is only for great people and that those that do not desire to reach for greatness should not apply for a position. Greatness, as we see it, is an inner motivation to treat every task and every job like it is the most important matter on earth. Greatness does not accept defeat but constantly attempts to use every setback as an opportunity for self-improvement, leading inevitably to greater and greater success in achieving our clients goals. Greatness does not believe in surrender; it uses adversity and sacrifice as challenges to be overcome by persistence and endurance. Greatness does not believe in excuses. Greatness rewards itself by the satisfaction derived from working tirelessly, pressing on until victory has been achieved regardless of the struggle.

Superior Compensation
Besides superior compensation, our attorneys participate in a revenue sharing program, thereby permitting an unlimited means of compensation based on performance. Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. includes an expansive benefits package including 401k, three-month paid maternity leave, 80 percent off gym membership to Equinox and a flexible, first-class working environment with built-in flexibility to accommodate our staff members needs and those of their families.
In addition to monetary compensation, every other week the firm indulges in Spa Fridays where employees receive a complimentary manicure or massage in the office. In years past, the firm has sent employees on an all expenses paid trip to a tropical destination as a reward to the firm for successful achievements. The firm celebrates all meaningful events such as birthdays, engagements, big victories and when new attorneys pass the bar.

Not Merely a Job, a Career
Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. is growing and looking toward the future, and providing enormous opportunities and rewards for outstanding lawyers and staff members of all ages and experience.

We choose the most talented applicants. When interviewing candidates for these positions, we look to see whether they have the potential to be great at our firm. Once we hire someone, the training, mentoring and teaching never stops. We strive for greatness in everything we do and expect our interns to do the same. We encourage you to express your opinions and share your ideas to improve our work.

The Best Externship/Internship/Summer Associate Program in the Country

No law firm in New York has produced a better internship and externship program in the country and this is proven by the number of attorneys who started as interns and then summer associates and many years later are the leading attorneys in their profession. Many of these attorneys have received the highest law firm awards, including Best Law Firm by Best Lawyers, Leading Real Estate Lawyer for Chambers USA, nine Super Lawyers and Rising Stars by Super Lawyers, Bar Register of Preeminent Lawyers and highest possible ranking in both Legal Ability & Ethical Standards by Martindale-Hubbell. For our size, we have more externs that became full time attorneys and then Super Lawyers than any other firm in the country.

The Numbers

Over 80 percent of our externs either received full time employment with our firm or we assisted in placing with the judiciary or finding other employment with another law firm.
In the past five years, Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. has hired nine law school interns full-time after graduation.
More than half our attorneys, including several partners, are under the age of 40.
We have more externs that become full-time attorneys and then Super Lawyers than any other firm in the country

The Training

Our interns become lawyers in training and are part of the legal team and learn on the case or deal. Being assigned to active cases and made part of the team has given externs and interns the ability to produce amazing results. Only the very best law school students will make it at Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. as we are considered among the best, if not the best, real estate law firm in New York City. Because Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. practices only one type of law, all of our associates rapidly become experts. Our externs never make coffee or copies. We have exciting cases that require hard work and sweat as well as the smartest most aggressive, passionate, loyal and committed students who are ready to change the world one real estate case at a time. Adam Leitman Bailey, P.C. has some of the most challenging and most high profile cases in the nation where staff expertise really does make a difference for the client, the community and, sometimes, the nation.

[Anonymous User]

I imagine Adam Leitman Bailey got a tearful standing ovation from the lawyers at his firm following his post.

I've noticed his is a common attitude among some TTT lawyers. These people have this bizarre attitude: "I had to work for everything, and you'll just have your daddy get you a gig at Skadden." Or, "We learned the rules at [TTT], and how to practice actual law."

I've seen a TTT lawyer make fun of Supreme Court justices to the effect of, "If only they had gone to [TTT], they wouldn't write such awful opinions."