Top 5% CCN, top ?% HYS? Forum

[Anonymous User]

For my feeder judge, top 5% at YHS and CN are pretty much indistinguishable.

[Anonymous User]

Why do raw numbers matter at all?

Well, for one thing, it's not like if SLS expands to 400 students per class you'd see the elite boutiques drawing the same percentage from SLS.

[Anonymous User]

For my feeder judge, top 5% at YHS and CN are pretty much indistinguishable.

Yes, but what about Chicago?

[Anonymous User]

Well, for one thing, it's not like if SLS expands to 400 students per class you'd see the elite boutiques drawing the same percentage from SLS.

Maybe that's true -- but why does it matter? The relevant question is how likely it is that you'll get [x] desirable outcome from SLS (or HLS or YLS) now, not in some hypothetical world in which SLS (or HLS or YLS) doubled or tripled in size. It may be that Harvard's size makes getting elite jobs out of Harvard more difficult. It doesn't really matter if getting those jobs is more difficult because Harvard is bigger, or because employers on the whole think Stanford's a better school. What matters is that getting those jobs is more difficult.

[rpupkin]

For my feeder judge, top 5% at YHS and CN are pretty much indistinguishable.

Judges, of course, are highly idiosyncratic. My judge was basically HY>S>rest of T10.

There are judges who don't like hiring from a particular elite school for one reason or another. And there are judges who will regularly hire one clerk from a TT alma mater.

But if you look at long-term data (say, the last five or ten years), it's hard to deny that HYS grads have an advantage when it comes to clerkship hiring, especially for the more competitive clerkships.

[Tiago Splitter]

But if you look at long-term data (say, the last five or ten years), it's hard to deny that HYS grads have an advantage when it comes to clerkship hiring, especially for the more competitive clerkships.

I'm not sure this is really the case when you get in to the top 2%. Someone that high up at CLS is about 50/50 to clerk for SCOTUS.

[rpupkin]

But if you look at long-term data (say, the last five or ten years), it's hard to deny that HYS grads have an advantage when it comes to clerkship hiring, especially for the more competitive clerkships.

I'm not sure this is really the case when you get in to the top 2%. Someone that high up at CLS is about 50/50 to clerk for SCOTUS.

That's not true. Top 2% means you're on of the top 8-9 students at CLS. Now look at how many CLS grads clerk on SCOTUS every year. It's pretty rare that CLS gets 4 or 5 SCOTUS clerks in a term. Some terms it's only one CLS grad: Ginsburg always hires a CLS clerk. (Once Ginsburg retires, CLS will be even more TTT when it comes to SCOTUS placement.)

[Tiago Splitter]

But if you look at long-term data (say, the last five or ten years), it's hard to deny that HYS grads have an advantage when it comes to clerkship hiring, especially for the more competitive clerkships.

I'm not sure this is really the case when you get in to the top 2%. Someone that high up at CLS is about 50/50 to clerk for SCOTUS.

That's not true. Top 2% means you're on of the top 8-9 students at CLS. Now look at how many CLS grads clerk on SCOTUS every year. It's pretty rare that CLS gets 4 or 5 SCOTUS clerks in a term. Some terms it's only one CLS grad: Ginsburg always hires a CLS clerk. (Once Ginsburg retires, CLS will be even more TTT when it comes to SCOTUS placement.)

Well top 2% these days is 7 people not including transfers and CLS got 4 last year and 3 the year before. But maybe we will get Ginsburgfucked soon enough who knows.

[rpupkin]

Well top 2% these days is 7 people not including transfers and CLS got 4 last year and 3 the year before. But maybe we will get Ginsburgfucked soon enough who knows.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info. CLS had one clerk the year before, I'm fairly sure. (2013-14). And they had three clerks this past term (2014-15), which is high for them.

[Anonymous User]

Also, at least back in my day, the way clerkships (rather, clerkships of the sort that led to jobs at the fancy boutiques) worked at CLS was that you had to get 'chosen', so to speak, by one of the professors who had the connection to place you with a feeder judge. So the top 5% GPA was necessary, but not sufficient; you had to have the connection as well.

[rpupkin]

Also, at least back in my day, the way clerkships (rather, clerkships of the sort that led to jobs at the fancy boutiques) worked at CLS was that you had to get 'chosen', so to speak, by one of the professors who had the connection to place you with a feeder judge. So the top 5% GPA was necessary, but not sufficient; you had to have the connection as well.

To be fair, that's basically true at HYS as well. But if you look at the year-to-year numbers, there are obviously more SCOTUS clerk "slots" at HYS (and especially HY) than there are at CLS.

Disclaimer: This is all silly and you shouldn't pick a law school based on the goal of clerking on SCOTUS. But, yeah, a top Yale or Harvard student is going to have a better shot at SCOTUS than a top CLS student.

[Tiago Splitter]

Well top 2% these days is 7 people not including transfers and CLS got 4 last year and 3 the year before. But maybe we will get Ginsburgfucked soon enough who knows.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info. CLS had one clerk the year before, I'm fairly sure. (2013-14). And they had three clerks this past term (2014-15), which is high for them.

I have super secret info obtained from a secret website called Above the Law showing 4 this coming term.

Obviously this discussion is getting a little tedious but it's safe to say that if OP can stay where (s)he is at everything is on the table.

[rpupkin]

Well top 2% these days is 7 people not including transfers and CLS got 4 last year and 3 the year before. But maybe we will get Ginsburgfucked soon enough who knows.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info. CLS had one clerk the year before, I'm fairly sure. (2013-14). And they had three clerks this past term (2014-15), which is high for them.

I have super secret info obtained from a secret website called Above the Law showing 4 this coming term.

The sarcasm isn't really warranted given that you're the one who wrote "4 last year and 3 the year before." But I at least agree with you that the discussion is getting tedious.

[Tiago Splitter]

Well top 2% these days is 7 people not including transfers and CLS got 4 last year and 3 the year before. But maybe we will get Ginsburgfucked soon enough who knows.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info. CLS had one clerk the year before, I'm fairly sure. (2013-14). And they had three clerks this past term (2014-15), which is high for them.

I have super secret info obtained from a secret website called Above the Law showing 4 this coming term.

The sarcasm isn't really warranted given that you're the one who wrote "4 last year and 3 the year before." But I at least agree with you that the discussion is getting tedious.

Haha ok. Like 1/3 of your posts on this site are serious so I figured you could handle it.

[rpupkin]

Haha ok. Like 1/3 of your posts on this site are serious so I figured you could handle it.

A generous estimate.

[Anonymous User]

I am not sure why this discussion is focused on Supreme Court hiring. OP clearly asked about firm hiring, not clerkship hiring. Of course, HYS enjoys considerable institutional advantage when it comes to Supreme Court hiring.

I work at one of the firms mentioned in this thread and have been involved in hiring. YS, and probably H, gives you some, small advantage in getting a callback. (We appear to have many H summers this year, so it is probably safe to include H.) But you pretty much have to be at the top of your class at any of these schools (including other T14) and be on law review anyway. With that said, top 5% of CCN will very likely get you a callback with us (especially if you have LR).

Once you get a callback, you are on the same footing. And many people who get callbacks do not get offers.

[packer_22]

As a Columbia 0L, if you are top 5% at Columbia, is there anything closed to you? I understand you don't have a GOOD shot at SCOTUS or a Bristow, but are top firms, DOJ Honors, etc still in play? Is anything meaningfully closed (as in, even with amazing other factors, you're excluded purely based on grades?)

[abl]

As a Columbia 0L, if you are top 5% at Columbia, is there anything closed to you? I understand you don't have a GOOD shot at SCOTUS or a Bristow, but are top firms, DOJ Honors, etc still in play? Is anything meaningfully closed (as in, even with amazing other factors, you're excluded purely based on grades?)

No. And things like SCOTUS and Bristow aren't particularly long shots either -- you probably have greater than a 25% chance of SCOTUS if you're top 5% at CLS.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as someone who was somewhere in the vicinity of top 5% at CLS, there is no freaking way you have a 25% chance at SCOTUS from there. Maybe its accurate to say you have a 25% chance at a feeder judge.

[abl]

Speaking as someone who was somewhere in the vicinity of top 5% at CLS, there is no freaking way you have a 25% chance at SCOTUS from there. Maybe its accurate to say you have a 25% chance at a feeder judge.

Ok--my mistake. I guess I can only speak for my HYS. From at least one of HYS (the one that I attended), if you are top 5% (assuming LR/LJ), you have a greater than 25% chance at SCOTUS (I'd probably say the top 5% have closer to a 33% chance, but that's partially because not everyone tries for SCOTUS, and so that's assuming some self-selection*). At my HYS I'd say you'd probably need to be somewhere in the area of top 10%-20% to have a greater than 25% shot at a feeder judge (also assuming LR/LJ), defining feeder judge as one of the top ~10-15 feeders (once again assuming some self selection).

*Put in other words, if everyone in the top 5% tried for SCOTUS, your chances would go down. But because everyone doesn't, your chances are a bit higher than they might seem. So, I'd say that approximately 1/3--if not more--of the folks in the top 5% of my HYS who seriously try for SCOTUS eventually ultimately get it.

[abl]

Speaking as someone who was somewhere in the vicinity of top 5% at CLS, there is no freaking way you have a 25% chance at SCOTUS from there. Maybe its accurate to say you have a 25% chance at a feeder judge.

Ok--my mistake. I guess I can only speak for my HYS. From at least one of HYS (the one that I attended), if you are top 5% (assuming LR/LJ), you have a greater than 25% chance at SCOTUS (I'd probably say the top 5% have closer to a 33% chance, but that's partially because not everyone tries for SCOTUS, and so that's assuming some self-selection*). At my HYS I'd say you'd probably need to be somewhere in the area of top 10%-20% to have a greater than 25% shot at a feeder judge (also assuming LR/LJ), defining feeder judge as one of the top ~10-15 feeders (once again assuming some self selection).

*Put in other words, if everyone in the top 5% tried for SCOTUS, your chances would go down. But because everyone doesn't, your chances are a bit higher than they might seem. So, I'd say that approximately 1/3--if not more--of the folks in the top 5% of my HYS who seriously try for SCOTUS eventually ultimately get it.

EDIT: thinking more about it, I'd actually say that greater than 50% of the folks in the top 5% of my HYS with law review/law journal who made a serious effort (e.g., took classes, clerkships, etc, with this goal in mind, and then applied more than once) at SCOTUS ultimately got it.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure how this thread degenerated into purely CLS, ignoring the other 2/3 of the CCN.

That being said, I would strongly recommend against Columbia if a clerkship is your goal. A variety of factors make it much more of an uphill battle for top CLS students than HYS.

[jbagelboy]

Not sure how this thread degenerated into purely CLS, ignoring the other 2/3 of the CCN.

That being said, I would strongly recommend against Columbia if a clerkship is your goal. A variety of factors make it much more of an uphill battle for top CLS students than HYS.

Apart from the obvious -- CLS is not as good a school to land a clerkship as any of HYS, I'm not sure I agree. If you're talking strictly about a set of 10-15 COA feeder judges that tend to hire incoming 2Ls, then no, Columbia (or any other school) obviously isn't on the level of HYS. But if you actually want to litigate and you'd be happy with a district court clerkship in a desirable location, CLS students down to about top 25% have a strong shot, usually with 1-2 years of practice experience (which many judges now expect).

My experience is that the very top twenty or so students in the class with strong faculty connections have the opportunity to land the type of "feeder" COA judges right out of law school that could position them for SCOTUS if they did everything right (this is roughly 5% after transfers in, as abl suggested.) FWIW, it's really not just grades, you need support of certain faculty as well. Of course, there are more folks like this at HYS - maybe top 10-15%. But there are a lot of other students that clerk for district courts and less coveted COA judges throughout the class. I think it's clear that if you want that tippy top route, you need to do extremely well, but are we talking about federal judges generally, or just a small subset of circuit and ultimately scotus judges?

[Anonymous User]

Obviously at >5% we're not talking about people who should be aiming for district court judges and run of the mill COA judges. Going to CLS essentially shuts you out of the judges that hire rising 2Ls over the summer, which puts a huge dent in career prospects.

[Anonymous User]

Obviously at >5% we're not talking about people who should be aiming for district court judges and run of the mill COA judges. Going to CLS essentially shuts you out of the judges that hire rising 2Ls over the summer, which puts a huge dent in career prospects.

This isn't true, at least two people had feeders lined up by the time we finished EIP last year, and I wouldn't even know of others. And to the extent it was true for others, this is quite an exaggeration. It's hardly a "huge dent" in your career to get your clerkship half a year later. Obviously this is fewer people than HYS but I think everyone posting here acknowledges that.