Top Law Schools

http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-LB-51633

I don't get it, for a firm that is all about elite, do they expect top notch talent to be sitting around as unemployed 3Ls, or do they expect students to just stay unemployed and hope they get Quinn?

Clearly wrote:http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-LB-51633

I don't get it, for a firm that is all about elite, do they expect top notch talent to be sitting around as unemployed 3Ls, or do they expect students to just stay unemployed and hope they get Quinn?

Maybe they expect to hire laterals who actually know how to do shit? Why spend all that time and money training summers and first years when you can just poach from leff preftigious sweatshops.

They'll probably pick up some 3L's who summered elsewhere too

I'm surprised there aren't more firms doing this.

If you're a lit firm, why would you not just hire clerks?

It's not like summer associates add any value, either. And yes, there is plenty of "top notch" talent who are jobless 3Ls as well. Hell, these firms could pay nothing to their summers and still have great candidates batting down their doors to do these jobs.

They will just poach clerks and laterals in higher numbers though. It's a smart strategy.

People were knocking down their doors the past several years despite working lots of their associates 2400+. Why would they care if the summer program goes away? As long as law students pick firms based on their Vault ranking instead of the overall law firm picture, this shit is going to happen. Plenty of people that summer at V50s are going to apply to QE 3L year. Plenty of clerks are going to apply to QE. They will have no problem getting top talent because law students dont care at all about making law firms pony up. If you are jobless, then I guess go work at QE, but law students are basically doing a disservice to the legal field working at QE.

Could not disagree more. The more the traditional hiring model breaks down, the better it will be for most lawyers.

There is a huge stigma associated with NOT getting an SA. These sorts of moves will make it easier to break into law firms over the long run.

Yeah these moves suck for top students at top schools who always get these jobs their 2L summer, but as someone who didn't make that cut, I could seriously give a fuck if some NYU 2L doesn't get free lunch every day and 30k in the bank for doing jack shit. It's high time law firms start readjusting toward the market.

minnbills wrote:I'm surprised there aren't more firms doing this.

If you're a lit firm, why would you not just hire clerks?

It's not like summer associates add any value, either. And yes, there is plenty of "top notch" talent who are jobless 3Ls as well. Hell, these firms could pay nothing to their summers and still have great candidates batting down their doors to do these jobs.

They will just poach clerks and laterals in higher numbers though. It's a smart strategy.

the new lit boutique in LA, Hueston Hennigan, isn't running a summer program and is instead just hiring clerks. and i think bartlit beck has done this for ages. keker has a "summer program" but it's like 3 kids. so this is a proven strategy for elite lit boutiques.

the thing is, quinn is way way bigger than the elite lit boutiques, it doesn't offer even close to the substantive experience, and most importantly, it doesn't offer performance incentives like the authentic lit boutiques. i can't see this strategy working out for them.

PS there's an identical thread on this that's still on the front page: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=250037

minnbills wrote: If you're a lit firm, why would you not just hire clerks?

Because most clerks go back to their 2L firm. To get people to switch firms (since most people develop biases in favor of their "home team" very quickly), you need to offer something that the 2L firm doesn't (e.g. more money). But most firms don't beat the market on clerkship bonuses (outside of a handful of uber elite boutiques that don't hire a meaningful amount of people, e.g. Susman).

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minnbills wrote:Could not disagree more. The more the traditional hiring model breaks down, the better it will be for most lawyers.

There is a huge stigma associated with NOT getting an SA. These sorts of moves will make it easier to break into law firms over the long run.

Yeah these moves suck for top students at top schools who always get these jobs their 2L summer, but as someone who didn't make that cut, I could seriously give a fuck if some NYU 2L doesn't get free lunch every day and 30k in the bank for doing jack shit. It's high time law firms start readjusting toward the market.

I dont think this means law firms are going to start people they otherwise wouldnt. It's more just a sign of a cheapening labor supplier. 3 months ago we were discussing NYC to 190 and now its more like oh SAs might be scrapped or pared back. That's a big move in favor of law firms/partners at the expense of worker bees. It doesn't mean someone from a T2 school will be competitive or have their resume looked. Just that the 2nd year NYU that did not get a SA gig will now get hired 3L year or the NYU grad that clerked for a year will go to Quinn. Less money in the pockets of young lawyers is always a bad thing for us.

Plenty of firms hire from more avenues than SAs - namely regional law firms. Quinn's move and other big Vault major market firms moving away from an SA program would not mean they start using the regional law firm model and hiring laterals that went to T2 schools. I went to a bad law school so I'd be all about it if it meant anything for us, but it doesn't. If we weren't competitive at QE before, we won't be now.

minnbills wrote:Could not disagree more. The more the traditional hiring model breaks down, the better it will be for most lawyers.

There is a huge stigma associated with NOT getting an SA. These sorts of moves will make it easier to break into law firms over the long run.

Yeah these moves suck for top students at top schools who always get these jobs their 2L summer, but as someone who didn't make that cut, I could seriously give a fuck if some NYU 2L doesn't get free lunch every day and 30k in the bank for doing jack shit. It's high time law firms start readjusting toward the market.

This doesn't make sense. Effective compensation for first years is $190k: $30k you make during the summer and $160k you make as a first year. Although it's not traditionally thought of that way, that 30k is so relied upon that schools like HYS take it into consideration when dishing out aid.

Yeah, I'm all for taking away paid summer programs as long as first year salaries move to $200k ($160k + the $10k we've been long overdue + $30k that we'd miss out on from axing the summer program).

You're also forgetting that the SA program has many benefits. Although 50% is wining and dining, at many places, you are actually working at least 50% of the time, if not more, and getting acclimated to the firm and its technology and how to do things, etc.

I doubt Client X is going to want to pay first year associate Y for any work between September and July of their first year...at least firms have the fall back of "oh hey he's not that incompetent, he was here last year!" To justify billing the clients $$$ for junior work

I know that TLS (and I) talk about how dumb junior work can be, but at the top firms, you do need a baseline level of critical thinking skills and writing skills. If you take away the SA program without increasing starting pay by 30k (or more), the best kids will forgo law altogether and just do something else.

Idk I just think that the whole "this is better for the legal market as a whole!" Is absurd

I don't think reducing compensation for one group of people to benefit a larger group of people will work in this case. They're still not gonna hire median from Minnesota

This is smart for Quinn. They have no trouble getting top talent and I bet they have a worse than typical big law retention rate so it makes even less sense to have an SA program.

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runinthefront wrote:

minnbills wrote:Could not disagree more. The more the traditional hiring model breaks down, the better it will be for most lawyers.

There is a huge stigma associated with NOT getting an SA. These sorts of moves will make it easier to break into law firms over the long run.

Yeah these moves suck for top students at top schools who always get these jobs their 2L summer, but as someone who didn't make that cut, I could seriously give a fuck if some NYU 2L doesn't get free lunch every day and 30k in the bank for doing jack shit. It's high time law firms start readjusting toward the market.

This doesn't make sense. Effective compensation for first years is $190k: $30k you make during the summer and $160k you make as a first year. Although it's not traditionally thought of that way, that 30k is so relied upon that schools like HYS take it into consideration when dishing out aid.

Yeah, I'm all for taking away paid summer programs as long as first year salaries move to $200k ($160k + the $10k we've been long overdue + $30k that we'd miss out on from axing the summer program).

You're also forgetting that the SA program has many benefits. Although 50% is wining and dining, at many places, you are actually working at least 50% of the time, if not more, and getting acclimated to the firm and its technology and how to do things, etc.

I doubt Client X is going to want to pay first year associate Y for any work between September and July of their first year...at least firms have the fall back of "oh hey he's not that incompetent, he was here last year!" To justify billing the clients $$$ for junior work

May-July 2015: 30k.
September-August: 160.
-----
1 year = 190 if 1 year = 15 months.

Desert Fox wrote:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:This is smart for Quinn. They have no trouble getting top talent and I bet they have a worse than typical big law retention rate so it makes even less sense to have an SA program.

are you sure they no trouble getting talent. They were the only V20 offer I had.

there was a thread with Harvard students with all Hs applying to QE. I don't think they have talent problems. They're brand has also probably gone up a bit since you were applying. They're a pretty hot firm but I have no idea why.

Desert Fox wrote:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:This is smart for Quinn. They have no trouble getting top talent and I bet they have a worse than typical big law retention rate so it makes even less sense to have an SA program.

are you sure they no trouble getting talent. They were the only V20 offer I had.

Aren't you in IP?

JohannDeMann wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:This is smart for Quinn. They have no trouble getting top talent and I bet they have a worse than typical big law retention rate so it makes even less sense to have an SA program.

are you sure they no trouble getting talent. They were the only V20 offer I had.

there was a thread with Harvard students with all Hs applying to QE. I don't think they have talent problems. They're brand has also probably gone up a bit since you were applying. They're a pretty hot firm but I have no idea why.

Everyone applies because you could get an early offer before. Yeah, there are some weirdos who go there anyway when they have other offers, but for the most part the people I knew would laugh at the idea of going to Quinn if you didn't have to.

JohannDeMann wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:This is smart for Quinn. They have no trouble getting top talent and I bet they have a worse than typical big law retention rate so it makes even less sense to have an SA program.

are you sure they no trouble getting talent. They were the only V20 offer I had.

there was a thread with Harvard students with all Hs applying to QE. I don't think they have talent problems. They're brand has also probably gone up a bit since you were applying. They're a pretty hot firm but I have no idea why.

Yeah I ran a quick search on my home market's Quinn roster after I read the WSJ article and believe it or not, they actually have some former clerks who worked for serious judges. My home market allows firms to be more selective than most, and I bet the NYC office has more regular joe top quarter T14ers, but for whatever reason, quinn somehow actually attract a few clerks who could have worked at any other regular biglaw firm.

lacrossebrother wrote:

runinthefront wrote:

minnbills wrote:Could not disagree more. The more the traditional hiring model breaks down, the better it will be for most lawyers.

There is a huge stigma associated with NOT getting an SA. These sorts of moves will make it easier to break into law firms over the long run.

Yeah these moves suck for top students at top schools who always get these jobs their 2L summer, but as someone who didn't make that cut, I could seriously give a fuck if some NYU 2L doesn't get free lunch every day and 30k in the bank for doing jack shit. It's high time law firms start readjusting toward the market.

This doesn't make sense. Effective compensation for first years is $190k: $30k you make during the summer and $160k you make as a first year. Although it's not traditionally thought of that way, that 30k is so relied upon that schools like HYS take it into consideration when dishing out aid.

Yeah, I'm all for taking away paid summer programs as long as first year salaries move to $200k ($160k + the $10k we've been long overdue + $30k that we'd miss out on from axing the summer program).

You're also forgetting that the SA program has many benefits. Although 50% is wining and dining, at many places, you are actually working at least 50% of the time, if not more, and getting acclimated to the firm and its technology and how to do things, etc.

I doubt Client X is going to want to pay first year associate Y for any work between September and July of their first year...at least firms have the fall back of "oh hey he's not that incompetent, he was here last year!" To justify billing the clients $$$ for junior work

May-July 2015: 30k.
September-August: 160.
-----
1 year = 190 if 1 year = 15 months.

My argument was that, even if you make the argument that $30k is being given out for absolutely doing nothing but being wined and dined during the summer, you can simply look at that as an extension to first year comp. most 1Ls and non-t120 2Ls are working just as hard and not getting paid anything their second year summer, so it's not a huge stretch

If a school like Columbia, Penn or Cornell routinely place 70%+ in BL, you can kind of bet on receiving that $30k for relatively easy work (if you go along with the fact that it's all a joke...which idk if I agree with). Therefore, you can sort of look at that wage as an extension of your first year pay (i.e., you're not really "working" your 2L summer)

runinthefront wrote:My argument was that, even if you make the argument that $30k is being given out for absolutely doing nothing but being wined and dined during the summer, you can simply look at that as an extension to first year comp. most 1Ls and non-t120 2Ls are working just as hard and not getting paid anything their second year summer, so it's not a huge stretch

If a school like Columbia, Penn or Cornell routinely place 70%+ in BL, you can kind of bet on receiving that $30k for relatively easy work (if you go along with the fact that it's all a joke...which idk if I agree with). Therefore, you can sort of look at that wage as an extension of your first year pay (i.e., you're not really "working" your 2L summer)

I have no idea what point you guys are trying to make. Yes, a lot of us count on BL summer money as part of our LS cost calculation. I don't understand why lumping it into the first year pay column makes wage stagnation any more or less relevant, or how it affects DF's point that Quinn is just trying to cut costs.

bruinfan10 wrote:

JohannDeMann wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:This is smart for Quinn. They have no trouble getting top talent and I bet they have a worse than typical big law retention rate so it makes even less sense to have an SA program.

are you sure they no trouble getting talent. They were the only V20 offer I had.

there was a thread with Harvard students with all Hs applying to QE. I don't think they have talent problems. They're brand has also probably gone up a bit since you were applying. They're a pretty hot firm but I have no idea why.

Yeah I ran a quick search on my home market's Quinn roster after I read the WSJ article and believe it or not, they actually have some former clerks who worked for serious judges. My home market allows firms to be more selective than most, and I bet the NYC office has more regular joe top quarter T14ers, but for whatever reason, quinn somehow actually attract a few clerks who could have worked at any other regular biglaw firm.

In fairness to QE, the associates I know who work there have the same shitty QOL as the associates I know in lit at Gibson, Latham, and Kirkland.

I'm not saying this move will make it easier for just anyone to get a biglaw job. I'm saying the whole SA thing has basically created a caste system. If you don't go down the biglaw route you are basically confined to a lesser career track for ever. I just want to see the profession open up more. This is heading in the right direction.

It doesn't matter where you include it. Point is a 3rd year lawyer at Quinn will have racked up 30k less than a 3rd year lawyer somewhere else. It's a move from a well respected lit firm, so it may cause other shittier lit firms to say oh good idea. In that case you're looking at total compensation for litigation lawyers to move down 30k. Which is the opposite of everyone here saying NYC to 190k! It's not the exact same obviously, but it's def not a good sign or going to make NYC firms cut each other's throats to go 190 or 175 when other firms are decreasing total compensation.

And yes it's obviously a cost cutting tactic. But that should fit into the same reasoning above. Cost cutting techniques that don't get punished are a threat to junior attorneys.

minnbills wrote:I'm not saying this move will make it easier for just anyone to get a biglaw job. I'm saying the whole SA thing has basically created a caste system. If you don't go down the biglaw route you are basically confined to a lesser career track for ever. I just want to see the profession open up more. This is heading in the right direction.

Thank god lawyers are finally making less money! You're dumb for assuming the caste system starts at Biglaw SA instead of T14.