Cravath 3L Hiring? Forum

[Anonymous User]

How difficult is it to get a full-time offer from Cravath as a 3L applicant?

Lower end of T14 with the best possible SA positions in Texas this summer. School doesn't rank but i'm assuming ~ top 15%.

[Anonymous User]

Some years they hire no 3Ls at all. Other years, only one or two. Rarely, if ever, more than three. Your chances are very slim.

[Anonymous User]

Slim seems right, but NALP says 9 entry level hires who weren't SAs in 2013, 3 in 2014.

[OutoftheWoods]

Why just cravath? 3L hiring is as ridiculous as is, why limit yourself to one firm?

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Why just cravath? 3L hiring is as ridiculous as is, why limit yourself to one firm?

Because they're the only firm of the V5 that participates in 3L OCI at my school and anything below that is not worth it over the current places i'm at imo.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is worth it over V&E/Baker Botts, but STB/Weil/Latham/Kirkland/Debevoise/Paul Weiss aren't? You should probably decide whether you want to be in NYC or TX.

[OutoftheWoods]

^yes that's why I was confused. Thought it was a move to NYC thing since cravath is only in NY. if you're going to move to NYC just based on vault rankings, you're gonna have a bad time. (unless its Wachtell. lol).

[Anonymous User]

^yes that's why I was confused. Thought it was a move to NYC thing since cravath is only in NY. if you're going to move to NYC just based on vault rankings, you're gonna have a bad time. (unless its Wachtell. lol).

Cravath is worth it over V&E/Baker Botts, but STB/Weil/Latham/Kirkland/Debevoise/Paul Weiss aren't? You should probably decide whether you want to be in NYC or TX.

If it makes you happy, Cravath is the only firm in the V20 that participates in our 3L OCI. Nonetheless, it also has the strongest reputation for corporate associate training, which is why i'm considering it now.

[Tiago Splitter]

Cravath is the only one that officially shows up for 3L OCI but most of their peers will at least take a look with those credentials.

[Anonymous User]

^yes that's why I was confused. Thought it was a move to NYC thing since cravath is only in NY. if you're going to move to NYC just based on vault rankings, you're gonna have a bad time. (unless its Wachtell. lol).

Cravath is worth it over V&E/Baker Botts, but STB/Weil/Latham/Kirkland/Debevoise/Paul Weiss aren't? You should probably decide whether you want to be in NYC or TX.

If it makes you happy, Cravath is the only firm in the V20 that participates in our 3L OCI. Nonetheless, it also has the strongest reputation for corporate associate training, which is why i'm considering it now.

S&C and Wachtell can easily challenge your perception of Cravath's "strongest reputation for corporate associate training." STB, Skadden, Davis Polk, etc. provide excellent training as well. I know someone who got Cravath/S&C/Wachtell as a 3L; he was top 15% at HYS.

[jbagelboy]

^yes that's why I was confused. Thought it was a move to NYC thing since cravath is only in NY. if you're going to move to NYC just based on vault rankings, you're gonna have a bad time. (unless its Wachtell. lol).

Cravath is worth it over V&E/Baker Botts, but STB/Weil/Latham/Kirkland/Debevoise/Paul Weiss aren't? You should probably decide whether you want to be in NYC or TX.

If it makes you happy, Cravath is the only firm in the V20 that participates in our 3L OCI. Nonetheless, it also has the strongest reputation for corporate associate training, which is why i'm considering it now.

S&C and Wachtell can easily challenge your perception of Cravath's "strongest reputation for corporate associate training." STB, Skadden, Davis Polk, etc. provide excellent training as well. I know someone who got Cravath/S&C/Wachtell as a 3L; he was top 15% at HYS.

I guess it really depends on which partner you're rotating with. You could have the most amazing mentorship experience or be abjectly miserable and receive little positive guidance. IME Cravath markets itself on its robust training for young lawyers, and as evidenced by OP people drink the kool-aid, but IME each of Cravath, Davis Polk and SullCrom have a specific, well-honed training and mentorship "style," all equally strong but distinct, some better for different personalities than others. Anyone considering corporate work in NYC will consider all three and mentorship and training were considerations we looked at pretty carefully.

[Anonymous User]

Just to respond to the initial post versus a which firm is best debate:

When people say 3L hiring is nearly inexistent in general, they're responding based on their experiences or the experiences of others. The market has changed significantly over the past year, at least the corporate market. I know OCI was easier this year in year's past so it's conceivable that 3L OCI will also be easier. The odds of landing any 1 firm, even if you have the credentials, are always far-fetched. You're banking on either an unanticipated need, or others not returning for there to even be a spot available to any student at any law school.

As a general matter, I'd urge you to think about cost of switching firms or going after prestige. Someone who leaves Cravath after 1 year of litigation probably won't have great options. There is value in working at an "elite" firm, but on a basic level you need a place you can get past xxx # of years at, and help you grow as a lawyer during this period.

Ultimately, this is going to be where you like working and where the people like you and marginally care about your success. If you have this at place 1, there is always a non-zero risk you will lose this at place 2. Even if place 2 is shinier, in a world where salaries are equal the elevated prestige might not compensate for the added risk. Your career is going to be the partners you work for, and the associates you work with. Cravath, Sullivan, etc. is in large part just a title. Not every Armani suit is going to look better on you than a Macy's suit.

[Anonymous User]

Just to respond to the initial post versus a which firm is best debate:

When people say 3L hiring is nearly inexistent in general, they're responding based on their experiences or the experiences of others. The market has changed significantly over the past year, at least the corporate market. I know OCI was easier this year in year's past so it's conceivable that 3L OCI will also be easier. The odds of landing any 1 firm, even if you have the credentials, are always far-fetched. You're banking on either an unanticipated need, or others not returning for there to even be a spot available to any student at any law school.

As a general matter, I'd urge you to think about cost of switching firms or going after prestige. Someone who leaves Cravath after 1 year of litigation probably won't have great options. There is value in working at an "elite" firm, but on a basic level you need a place you can get past xxx # of years at, and help you grow as a lawyer during this period.

Ultimately, this is going to be where you like working and where the people like you and marginally care about your success. If you have this at place 1, there is always a non-zero risk you will lose this at place 2. Even if place 2 is shinier, in a world where salaries are equal the elevated prestige might not compensate for the added risk. Your career is going to be the partners you work for, and the associates you work with. Cravath, Sullivan, etc. is in large part just a title. Not every Armani suit is going to look better on you than a Macy's suit.

I think that's fair. But if you end up at a place where you can't last xxx # of years for whatever reason, firms in TX are more likely than not to take you as a lateral.

What are people's thoughts on corporate work Cleary/Weil/Latham NY? How about Debevoise/White & Case?

Also, is it best to email hiring partners directly, or go through the recruiting department at each firm?

[Anonymous User]

This is very true, and a fair point.

Regarding your list of firms:

Again, it's always going to be somewhat practice group specific, but they're all in that "upper echelon" category. Only White & Case would standout. I don't think people generally regard White & Case in the same way. My intent isn't to come off as a White & Case hater. There's just a basic neuroscientific principle that in a pile of 10 black dots and 1 red one, the human brain recognizes the red dot before any of the other ones irrespective of how the dots are scattered. White & Case is the red dot.

Regarding who to e-mail, it depends on your personal connection. If you have no personal connection to the hiring partner, e-mailing a hiring partner is probably mildly annoying at best. If you know the hiring partner then e-mail them to take advantage of your connection. The fool proof way to go is to put yourself in the e-mailee's shoes and ask what would seem weird if you were them and they were applicant # 3219400543, then avoid what seems weird.

[Anonymous User]

Interested in this as well. Wondering whether 3L hiring is the same numbers game as law school admission and 2L hiring.

FWIW, 10% at CCN, V30 SA, limited knowledge in finance stuffs and limited ability in carrying out an interesting conversation. Actually have limited skills in every dimension other than gaming the law school exams.

[Anonymous User]

Note - what follows is just my experience. At a T-14. Summered at a mid-size law firm in secondary market as a 2L. Received a full-time offer. I then interviewed again as a rising 3L and received 8 offers (mostly V10s). Decided to joining a V5. My two cents: it's a numbers game, but the water mark is now a bit higher. There are tons of smart, well-credentialed 3Ls vying for the same gig. So just like OCI, your numbers get you the screener. Your relative lack of weirdness gets you a second look. And then your ability to avoid verbal diarrhea gets you an offer.

In terms of how to get screeners, I just emailed recruiting at firms that I was interested in. Hope this helps.

[Anonymous User]

To the above anon, thanks, this really helps.

8 offers? That's a lot of work. Congrats on the move!

[doctoroflaw91]

Note - what follows is just my experience. At a T-14. Summered at a mid-size law firm in secondary market as a 2L. Received a full-time offer. I then interviewed again as a rising 3L and received 8 offers (mostly V10s). Decided to joining a V5. My two cents: it's a numbers game, but the water mark is now a bit higher. There are tons of smart, well-credentialed 3Ls vying for the same gig. So just like OCI, your numbers get you the screener. Your relative lack of weirdness gets you a second look. And then your ability to avoid verbal diarrhea gets you an offer.

In terms of how to get screeners, I just emailed recruiting at firms that I was interested in. Hope this helps.

Damn, congratulations. That's awesome.

Do you have a template that you used to contact recruiting by any chance?

[Anonymous User]

Above anon who lucked out as a 3L.

Here's a general template that I suggest using when contacting recruiters:

---
Dear [ ],

I am a rising third-year law student at [ law school], with [GPA & anything else you think will get your application noticed]. [One sentence requesting an interview.]

[Explain what you did during your 2L summer in one sentence. In my experience, you're a more attractive candidate if you were at a firm and received an offer. Two sentences about why you want to jump ship - e.g., target firm has great litigation practice and you want to litigate in XYZ city.]

[Short paragraph thanking recruiter and providing your contact information.]

---

Hope this helps. Feel free to post any other questions you have in this thread, and I'll try to answer them based on my experience.

[Anonymous User]

Above anon who lucked out as a 3L.

Here's a general template that I suggest using when contacting recruiters:

---
Dear [ ],

I am a rising third-year law student at [ law school], with [GPA & anything else you think will get your application noticed]. [One sentence requesting an interview.]

[Explain what you did during your 2L summer in one sentence. In my experience, you're a more attractive candidate if you were at a firm and received an offer. Two sentences about why you want to jump ship - e.g., target firm has great litigation practice and you want to litigate in XYZ city.]

[Short paragraph thanking recruiter and providing your contact information.]

---

Hope this helps. Feel free to post any other questions you have in this thread, and I'll try to answer them based on my experience.

Are you happy at your V5? If you're doing corporate work, how did you make your decision after receiving all your offers? Also, were interviews significantly different than those during the 2L recruiting process - other than questions regarding your newfound interest, etc.?

[Anonymous User]

I am doing corporate work at a V5, and I have no regrets with my decision to come here. I made my decision based on (1) perceived "fit" (gauged through the interview process and conversations with my school's alums either at the firm or who previously worked there) and (2) the breadth of work that I could expect to receive as a junior associate (also spoke to the aforementioned alums about exit options they received as a result of their exposure in XYZ group). Not all firms are equal in this respect, so I really urge 3Ls with multiple offers to make an informed decision that isn't based exclusively on Vault rankings. For example, take a long, hard look at Cravath's rotation system and consider its advantages and disadvantages. If you have good reasons to want to do private equity work, I wouldn't go to Cravath just because it's Cravath (assuming you have, say, a Simpson/Kirkland offer in hand). That's just silly. But you would be surprised how many classmates I know who made that silly decision. And they're paying for it.

The interview set-up was very different. Generally, it was a three-stage process. Screener either at the firm, over the phone, or on Skype. Then a callback. And in some cases, a follow-up to the callback. All callbacks were partner heavy (i.e., the only associates I met either took me to lunch or drinks afterwards). The questions were far more substantive with respect to what I did at my 2L firm. On the whole, the stakes were palpably much higher.

[phildunphy]

I am doing corporate work at a V5, and I have no regrets with my decision to come here. I made my decision based on (1) perceived "fit" (gauged through the interview process and conversations with my school's alums either at the firm or who previously worked there) and (2) the breadth of work that I could expect to receive as a junior associate (also spoke to the aforementioned alums about exit options they received as a result of their exposure in XYZ group). Not all firms are equal in this respect, so I really urge 3Ls with multiple offers to make an informed decision that isn't based exclusively on Vault rankings. For example, take a long, hard look at Cravath's rotation system and consider its advantages and disadvantages. If you have good reasons to want to do private equity work, I wouldn't go to Cravath just because it's Cravath (assuming you have, say, a Simpson/Kirkland offer in hand). That's just silly. But you would be surprised how many classmates I know who made that silly decision. And they're paying for it.

The interview set-up was very different. Generally, it was a three-stage process. Screener either at the firm, over the phone, or on Skype. Then a callback. And in some cases, a follow-up to the callback. All callbacks were partner heavy (i.e., the only associates I met either took me to lunch or drinks afterwards). The questions were far more substantive with respect to what I did at my 2L firm. On the whole, the stakes were palpably much higher.

^Could you please PM me? It would be great to hear more details about your 3L hiring process and thoughts on the firms with which I have interviews. You also seem very informed about the firms you were deciding between and I would love to hear your perspective. Thanks in advance!

[Anonymous User]

For those who managed to get the offer, how much of an improvement did you note between 1L and 2L? At the moment, I couldn't realistically try at Cravath with my grades at CCN, but I am hoping to do a lot better next semester than last (did much better this semester than last). I know, don't put the cart before the horse, but it's nice to have goals.

[phildunphy]

Advice re Cravath callback, anyone? Chances of getting an offer? How to prepare? What to expect? 3L interviewing for corporate. Any guidance is appreciated - feel free to PM me!