Worth Pursuing SF Firms? Forum

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

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[californiauser]

You're anonymous -- you might as well post your school or at least give us a narrower range of schools to work with.

What's the downside of mass mailing SF firms if you want to work there? Go for it. None of use can tell you with any certainty that you'll get an offer in SF, but it's worth a shot.

[WhiskeynCoke]

1) why wouldn't you apply anyway? What is it really costing you?
2) only you can answer this question.
3) you do realize SF is one of the most expensive cities in the country, in the state with arguably the most saturated legal market, right?

I think you should mass mail because 1) you're at a T2 (so you're never really safe), and 2) you're average at interviewing. I mean, it can't hurt.

OP here. I appreciate the response. I should clarify that at OCI, it is only local firms, and they only do OCI at my school.

I wouldn't apply because I feel like I have a better chance at getting a job through OCI and at this point, would prefer one of those jobs.

And as for SF being expensive and saturated, I do realize that, but with no debt and double the pay of my (not quite as high but still pretty high COL) home market, it seems like a financially sound choice. What I'm really asking is whether there are midlaw jr associate jobs that hire through SA programs.

ETA: I guess the quoted post was deleted, not sure why.

Um, you completely missed the other poster's point. Doing OCI and mass mailing SF firms are not mutually exclusive - you are being advised to do BOTH. In fact, you should mass mail everywhere, not just SF. The more firms you apply to, the better your chances of landing something. There is absolutely no downside to mass mailing, you have nothing to lose here.

Also, as the other poster pointed out, you are at a T2 and you have no work experience. You are by no means guaranteed to get a job through OCI, regardless of your GPA. Hustle like a maniac until you get an offer.

[Anonymous User]

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[Kratos]

Thanks for the input.

You all are correct that I should mass mail and I will do so. I guess I am more interested in comparing the outcomes--80k/midlaw vs whatever is out there in SF (including whether such midlaw jobs are existent there). I know my chances at OCI. If I can nail 1/15 interviews, I'll have a job. Like many on this board, I am risk-averse. I worded the title in a misleading way--I am comparing two possible outcomes (one more likely than the other), not really asking if I should mass mail. I should have worded original post better.

So would you guys prefer SF biglaw or secondary market (think San Diego, Seattle, Miami) midlaw at 80k/year?

maybe worry about this if and when you get offers in both

[BigZuck]

Thanks for the input.

You all are correct that I should mass mail and I will do so. I guess I am more interested in comparing the outcomes--80k/midlaw vs whatever is out there in SF (including whether such midlaw jobs are existent there). I know my chances at OCI. If I can nail 1/15 interviews, I'll have a job. Like many on this board, I am risk-averse. I worded the title in a misleading way--I am comparing two possible outcomes (one more likely than the other), not really asking if I should mass mail. I should have worded original post better.

So would you guys prefer SF biglaw or secondary market (think San Diego, Seattle, Miami) midlaw at 80k/year?

maybe worry about this if and when you get offers in both

Yeah, this is seriously not worth even thinking about right now

Apply to any and every firm possible, CRUSH OCI, get a metric butt ton of offers, and then figure out what your preference is.

Spending time thinking of this stuff and typing up posts about it takes precious time away from doing the prep work you should be doing to actually get a job. Focus on that for now.

[Anonymous User]

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[El Pollito]

I don't think you'll get a job in SF from a crap school in the middle of nowhere, but you should still apply. Is that better?

[trebekismyhero]

OP again.

Alright, seems like you all think it's not worth thinking about options until they come to pass. That's fine. In my original post, I was among other things, trying to get a sense of whether I have a shot at an SF job. Still curious as to that. I know very little about the SF market in general. I don't think "preparing for interviews" and thinking about potential jobs is mutually exclusive. In fact, I think having an honest assessment of each job and knowledge about each job would actually help in interviews.

I have asked anon questions here before, and some posters are great and helpful. Others are quick to shit on anyone who may be in a different position than the average TLS-person. You all seem to think everyone is in a position where the reasonable thing to do is to take on huge debt, go to a T14/T6 school and then gun for big law, which you all seem to hate. I was lucky enough to go to a local T2 (where 75% of lawyers in my city attended, actual statistic, not a guess) without any debt. I also worked hard and did very well on my exams, ignoring the TLS studying cliches (I used no supplements, read every case closely, attended each lecture, and hand-wrote case briefs for each case). Biglaw is non-existent in my market. I was just trying to get a sense of what it is like so I can decide whether I want to spend time pursuing it (and yes, there is an opportunity cost). I am not guaranteed a job at OCI, but about 1/4 of the class will get jobs that way, and being in the top 3 should allow me a good shot at at least one offer, or else a state clerkship (which actually opens good doors in my city).

You guys seem to know a lot about biglaw. I was hoping for details pertinent to my situation. I know a partner at a large SF firm but was hoping for an associate's perspective. A lot of T2s (and T1s) do put even top students in a precarious position w/r/t jobs. But you guys should not be so quick to assume T2 = fucked and should pursue every option without regard to whether it would suit the person.

No one is saying you're fucked, but just that you are not guaranteed and also you haven't given enough info to us. You said think Seattle, San Diego, or Miami. If you are at Miami with no connections to CA then you probably have close to no chance of getting SF big law. If you are at San Diego and from California with ties, you have a slightly better than 0% chance, but still not a great chance

[Anonymous User]

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[BigZuck]

Your strawmen are weird

But yeah, just apply and see what happens. What better things do you have to do with your time?

I think the chicken summed up your chances quite nicely. That said, why wouldn't you go for it?

Strawman aside, what are you looking for here? Your chances suck, but you should go for it and people here have supported you in that. YOLO. What else are you looking for here?

[lacrossebrother]

I don't think you'll get a job in SF from a crap school in the middle of nowhere, but you should still apply. Is that better?

This was obviously supposed to insult me, but I am pretty happy and made choices that have paid off for me so far (taking no debt at a T2 over debt at a T14 where I'd likely be median). And it was more responsive/helpful than the previous comments, so I guess thank you.

Is my school crap? I don't think so. I've had excellent professors (way better than at the supposedly top tier undergrad I attended), like my classmates, have zero debt, and have pretty good prospects post-grad. For someone in the bottom half of my class, it may be a fair assessment.

No one is saying you're fucked, but just that you are not guaranteed and also you haven't given enough info to us. You said think Seattle, San Diego, or Miami. If you are at Miami with no connections to CA then you probably have close to no chance of getting SF big law. If you are at San Diego and from California with ties, you have a slightly better than 0% chance, but still not a great chance

Interesting, thank you. Does being originally from the bay area, and having half of my family there count as ties?

She wasn't trying to insult you based on your school choice. She insulted you for being a weirdo asking weird ass questions and not just applying to the firms. As in it seemed like you were looking for someone to tell you no.

[Anonymous User]

What else are you looking for here?

Discussion of biglaw versus midlaw? Chances aside, is the extra 80k a year worth the longer hours and type of work in big law?

As in it seemed like you were looking for someone to tell you no.

Eh, guilty, I guess.

[runinthefront]

good luck dude lol

idk if even being #1 at a T2 is anything to write home about when talking about targeting SF biglaw when ur school is outside of CA

[El Pollito]

Of course it is. 80K is a shitload of money.

[Anonymous User]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

You all seem to think everyone is in a position where the reasonable thing to do is to take on huge debt, go to a T14/T6 school and then gun for big law, which you all seem to hate.

This is really not what people here suggest.

In any case, my understanding is that one of the problems with comparing $80K midlaw with SF biglaw is that there's a lot more variation in midlaw, so it's hard to know what to compare. Some midlaw places are basically the same as biglaw wrt hours, they just pay less. Some midlaw places will do similar work to biglaw, some won't. Some midlaw firms will be those unicorn firms where life-work balance matters and everyone who's brought in is expected to make partner, and some will be sweatshops where associates turn over a lot. Expectations for things like hours and making partner can vary a lot more than in biglaw (not that there aren't any differences between biglaw firms, but I think they're a little more homogenous). There's lots of discussion here about what biglaw is like generally, and you're in the best position to compare that to your local midlaw.

If what you're really getting at is, why do people do biglaw?, there's a bunch of reasons: the money (whether that's just to have money or because they went into debt for LS), the experience, the exit options (like they want to go govt/in-house but need experience first). (Also wrt kids/education - if you want to send your kids to Harvard or the like, "enough money so that any kids I have can have a good education" can be a shitload of money.)

[Anonymous User]

Thank you nony. Your post was really helpful and thoughtful.

Mid law firms in my jdx seem to be all over the map. I know of some unicorn firms (my top choices going into oci) and some sweatshops.