Lowest Grade is Contracts...Corporate Possible? Forum

[chuckbass]

For top 15% at CCN though, his Ks grade couldn't have been that bad.

[5ky]

contracts has the same relation to v10 corp work as torts or conlaw, i.e. none. that's litigation contracts.

[jbagelboy]

My lowest 1L grade was contracts; followed closely by my lowest 2L grade, Corporations.

No one cares. Contracts as presented in the academy is fucking stupid anyway. Do you think commercial attorneys are concerned with the scholastic brain teasers of consideration? Or with consideration at all?

Otherwise congrats on what sounds like a great semester.

[Anonymous User]

Contracts class isn't corporate work, it's basically commercial litigation dealing with contracts that went wrong. You're fine.

[Pokemon]

Is this some weird humble-bragging. OP got a B+ in contracts and is top 15% at CCN...

[Anonymous User]

Do keep in mind, though, that if you have a real stinker of a grade on your transcript, you'll get asked about it. No one gives a shit but it's an easy opportunity to make you squirm a bit and see how you hold up.

Yeah this. I was asked about my b- every callback. Just make sure you take responsibility for it and don't try to blame a professor or something. I just straight up said I didn't study enough for that exam or said that the material never really clicked. No one seemed to care after that and I got multiple offers

Good advice. Assuming you got some As though.

[UnicornHunter]

Is this some weird humble-bragging. OP got a B+ in contracts and is top 15% at CCN...

That's exactly what this is. I'm surprised nobody's told OP to read more books or visit a few national parks yet.

[WheninLaw]

I'm a 2L at a CCN. I got a C in Contracts and will be working for the Corp Dept at an NYC V10 next summer.

Wait...what? CLS or NYU gives out Cs? (I know you didn't to to UChi because they use a cryptic number-based grading system that no one understands.)

If you actually got a C in contracts at NYU/CLS, please share the story. Did you turn in a blank document for your final exam or something like that?

Ha, I actually do go to Chicago. I figured nobody would understand our number system even if I posted it. Anyways, Chicago definitely gives out "C" equivalent grades (lower than 174), but they are pretty rare

Don't feed the troll

1. Chicago is on the Q system
2. The contracts EXAM wont be given until March
3. First Q grades for 1Ls haven't come out yet.

What a moron.

[84651846190]

That dude said he was a 2L, though.

[WheninLaw]

That dude said he was a 2L, though.

OP says he is a 1L.

Edit: I was trying to quote the OP, not the follow-up 2L. Still stands that he's an idiot.

[rpupkin]

That dude said he was a 2L, though.

OP says he is a 1L.

Edit: I was trying to quote the OP, not the follow-up 2L. Still stands that he's an idiot.

But the OP said he went to CCN, not Chicago. If what you're saying about UChi is true, then OP is probably at NYU or CLS. And the follow-up poster was, as you seem to realize, a 2L at UChi who already took K.

Why the rage, bro?

[Anonymous User]

What is median at CLS for 1L's after fall semester? B+ B+ B? Couldn't it easily be B+ B+ B+ since only like 35% of the class is getting a B in a given course?

On TLS, everyone from CLS with a GPA above 3.0 says "I'm median at CLS." It makes evaluating whether or not we have a realistic shot come EIP extremely difficult.

[BizBro]

What is median at CLS for 1L's after fall semester? B+ B+ B? Couldn't it easily be B+ B+ B+ since only like 35% of the class is getting a B in a given course?

On TLS, everyone from CLS with a GPA above 3.0 says "I'm median at CLS." It makes evaluating whether or not we have a realistic shot come EIP extremely difficult.

Isn't median like 3.3?

[Anonymous User]

What is median at CLS for 1L's after fall semester? B+ B+ B? Couldn't it easily be B+ B+ B+ since only like 35% of the class is getting a B in a given course?

On TLS, everyone from CLS with a GPA above 3.0 says "I'm median at CLS." It makes evaluating whether or not we have a realistic shot come EIP extremely difficult.

2L at CLS. the school doesn't release the exact grades for median, which IMO, is good for non-stone students because employers can't figure it out either. after going through EIP, i'd say students are grouped into roughly three (maybe four, if you separate out kent scholars) groups: (1) kent + stone; (2) non-stone people; (3) even lower non-stone people (i'm guessing multiple b-s, straight Bs).

seeing how hiring went this year, if you're in group 2, you'll most likely not get certain firms (e.g., Cravath), but the rest of the firms will probably not differentiate between candidates in this group solely on grades. CLS will release data later that will tell you the percentages of Stone scholars each firm hired, so you can gauge how grade selective certain firms are.

true story from CLS: person 1 had 4 Bs, 3 B+s. person 2 had 2 Bs, 4 B+s, 1 A-. person 1 got multiple offers and callbacks over person 2, who interviewed with the same firms (person 2 turned out fine too). it really came down to how well person 1 meshed with the interviewers, which is something that can't be quantified.

i would worry if you are group 3, but then again, i'm sure there are some anecdotes i don't know of where people in that group got offers. seriously, don't worry about EIP until 1L is over and you get all your grades back. your grades can improve next semester, and even if you stay in group 2, you're okay. i've learned that a lot of stress is artificially produced in law school, and part of what you "learn" in law school is staying grounded and not freaking out about self-imposed anxieties. a lot easier said than done, but one of the benefits of attending CLS is that nearly everyone has a realistic shot at EIP.

before i make EIP at CLS sound like all rainbows and butterflies, i know that some people did strike out, who really shouldn't have (but this was a VERY small number). i personally thought that the EIP process can be as arbitrary as law school exam grading. you have no control over who your interviewers are, and you're only given 20 minutes to make an impression. there isn't a magic formula that determines which firm you'll get. you just have to give it your best shot with the available info from OCS. in the mean time, don't beat yourself up over grades, work smarter spring semester, but also maintain your sanity.

(sorry didn't mean for this to be so long, but at this time last year, i was freaking out about 1L fall grades, and looking back, i could have saved myself a lot of grief.)

[Anonymous User]

What is median at CLS for 1L's after fall semester? B+ B+ B? Couldn't it easily be B+ B+ B+ since only like 35% of the class is getting a B in a given course?

On TLS, everyone from CLS with a GPA above 3.0 says "I'm median at CLS." It makes evaluating whether or not we have a realistic shot come EIP extremely difficult.

2L at CLS. the school doesn't release the exact grades for median, which IMO, is good for non-stone students because employers can't figure it out either. after going through EIP, i'd say students are grouped into roughly three (maybe four, if you separate out kent scholars) groups: (1) kent + stone; (2) non-stone people; (3) even lower non-stone people (i'm guessing multiple b-s, straight Bs).

seeing how hiring went this year, if you're in group 2, you'll most likely not get certain firms (e.g., Cravath), but the rest of the firms will probably not differentiate between candidates in this group solely on grades. CLS will release data later that will tell you the percentages of Stone scholars each firm hired, so you can gauge how grade selective certain firms are.

true story from CLS: person 1 had 4 Bs, 3 B+s. person 2 had 2 Bs, 4 B+s, 1 A-. person 1 got multiple offers and callbacks over person 2, who interviewed with the same firms (person 2 turned out fine too). it really came down to how well person 1 meshed with the interviewers, which is something that can't be quantified.

i would worry if you are group 3, but then again, i'm sure there are some anecdotes i don't know of where people in that group got offers. seriously, don't worry about EIP until 1L is over and you get all your grades back. your grades can improve next semester, and even if you stay in group 2, you're okay. i've learned that a lot of stress is artificially produced in law school, and part of what you "learn" in law school is staying grounded and not freaking out about self-imposed anxieties. a lot easier said than done, but one of the benefits of attending CLS is that nearly everyone has a realistic shot at EIP.

before i make EIP at CLS sound like all rainbows and butterflies, i know that some people did strike out, who really shouldn't have (but this was a VERY small number). i personally thought that the EIP process can be as arbitrary as law school exam grading. you have no control over who your interviewers are, and you're only given 20 minutes to make an impression. there isn't a magic formula that determines which firm you'll get. you just have to give it your best shot with the available info from OCS. in the mean time, don't beat yourself up over grades, work smarter spring semester, but also maintain your sanity.

(sorry didn't mean for this to be so long, but at this time last year, i was freaking out about 1L fall grades, and looking back, i could have saved myself a lot of grief.)

So, in other words, someone with a 3.3-3.4 is in the same position at EIP as someone with a 3.1-3.2, since both people would fall into "Group 2?" Maybe this is just sour grapes because my 1L Fall grades are B+, B+, B+, but it just doesn't seem logical that this would be the case. Why would the difference between a Stone 3.41 student and a non-stone with 3.38 be greater than that between the 3.38 non-stone and a non-stone w/ a 3.1?

Smh. I was actually kind of happy when I got my 3.33. Oh well.

As a side note - what % of "group 2" people come away from EIP with an offer? I know that the markets people bid, work experience, etc. are relevant. For argument's sake let's assume they bid exclusively NYC, have median work experience, median interview skills, and don't bid wastefully. What are the odds?

[utahraptor]

Employers don't care about nuances in grades to the extent you think they do.

re: EIP stuff, calm down and come July read through old threads/talk to people/practice interviewing

Interviews are a human process. You're not going to be able to whittle it down to a simple formula like you did with law school admissions. You're going to need to let go of that, or it will drive you crazy and make you focus on the wrong things.

ETA: you should be happy with a 3.33—it's fall 1L, you can improve your GPA, and even if you don't, fewer doors have been closed to you than you'd think

[cron1834]

Is this some weird humble-bragging. OP got a B+ in contracts and is top 15% at CCN...

Yeah, wut? How is this thread a thing? Are ppl really this gunnerish at CCN?

[Anonymous User]

Employers don't care about nuances in grades to the extent you think they do.

re: EIP stuff, calm down and come July read through old threads/talk to people/practice interviewing

Interviews are a human process. You're not going to be able to whittle it down to a simple formula like you did with law school admissions. You're going to need to let go of that, or it will drive you crazy and make you focus on the wrong things.

ETA: you should be happy with a 3.33—it's fall 1L, you can improve your GPA, and even if you don't, fewer doors have been closed to you than you'd think

I'm amazed by the extent to which CLS 2L/3Ls state the "you can improve your GPA" line. Do you realize that it's a zero sum game, and every single student is trying to improve their GPA?

Also - why does every CLS 2L/3L say at admitted students weekend that "as long as you don't totally mess up 1L you'll be fine," but now that I've actually taken out the loans to go here, everyone on TLS and the rest of the internet says "getting Stone is really the only way to guarantee a job."

As a K-JD 1L at CLS attending at sticker, this whole process has been a mess and I feel like I was duped. "Getting median" doesn't make you safe, even though every 2L/3L you meet at ASW will tell you that it does.

Now that I've taken out soul-crushing loans to go here, I discover that it's Kent/Stone (Something like top 1/3rd?) and then everybody else. Sounds an awful lot like the employment prospects of the top 30 schools other than HYS - except that I got merit $$$ to go to those schools. Like the naive 0L that I was, I enrolled here at sticker because "T6 are the only schools worth going to." But now, assuming I end up non-Stone, I will somehow need to develop "amazing" interview skills to get a job in BigLaw because I don't have full-time work experience

SMDH. Feel like an idiot for telling my family that I was in a good place after getting a 3.33. Would do anything to go back in time and not get myself involved in this awful CLS rat-race.

[chuckbass]

Employers don't care about nuances in grades to the extent you think they do.

re: EIP stuff, calm down and come July read through old threads/talk to people/practice interviewing

Interviews are a human process. You're not going to be able to whittle it down to a simple formula like you did with law school admissions. You're going to need to let go of that, or it will drive you crazy and make you focus on the wrong things.

ETA: you should be happy with a 3.33—it's fall 1L, you can improve your GPA, and even if you don't, fewer doors have been closed to you than you'd think

I'm amazed by the extent to which CLS 2L/3Ls state the "you can improve your GPA" line. Do you realize that it's a zero sum game, and every single student is trying to improve their GPA?

Also - why does every CLS 2L/3L say at admitted students weekend that "as long as you don't totally mess up 1L you'll be fine," but now that I've actually taken out the loans to go here, everyone on TLS and the rest of the internet says "getting Stone is really the only way to guarantee a job."

As a K-JD 1L at CLS attending at sticker, this whole process has been a mess and I feel like I was duped. "Getting median" doesn't make you safe, even though every 2L/3L you meet at ASW will tell you that it does.

Now that I've taken out soul-crushing loans to go here, I discover that it's Kent/Stone (Something like top 1/3rd?) and then everybody else. Sounds an awful lot like the employment prospects of the top 30 schools other than HYS - except that I got merit $$$ to go to those schools. Like the naive 0L that I was, I enrolled here at sticker because "T6 are the only schools worth going to." But now, assuming I end up non-stone, I will somehow need to develop "amazing" interview skills to get a job in BigLaw because I don't have full-time work experience

SMDH. Feel like an idiot for telling my family that I was in a good place after getting a 3.33. Would do anything to go back in time and not get myself involved in this awful CLS rat-race.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/columbia/2013/

75%+ in biglaw/fed clerk... looks like a lot of non Kent/Stone kids. You will be ok.

[utahraptor]

Listen: most people at CLS end up with jobs through EIP. Two years ago somewhere around 30-40 people did not. I get the impression that last year things were even better. That's not a tiny number, but it's smaller than pretty much anywhere else you'd go.

More shockingly, those people don't always have bad grades. You can be Stone and strike out. There was a Kent scholar a few years back who struck out until a firm reached out to OCS because they wanted more bodies.

Once again, firms don't care about tiny differences in grades, though I think the Stone line is somewhat meaningful. If you're median-ish, odds are that you'll get a job. You might not have tons of offers, but things generally work out. (There are a heck of a lot more than 40 people who are below Stone each year). But, most firms aren't going to treat a 3.6 wildly differently than a 3.41, or a 3.39 wildly differently from a 3.2. They don't care. If you slip too far down, maybe they do, and it definitely becomes more a struggle, but you can still get many callbacks in that range.

What I'm saying is that there is no safe spot. The people who strike out do so for a variety of reasons, sometimes it is grades, sometimes they bid poorly, sometimes they targeted the wrong market, sometimes they answer a particular interview question poorly, and sometimes they just had really awful luck. I'm not sure if that reality is reassuring or troubling to you, but that's the reality of legal hiring pretty much anywhere. There are many unknowns and a lot of luck in the process.

Substantively, lack of work experience shouldn't trouble you. I think that work experience of the wrong kind might be more of a problem than having nothing, because then you need to explain why you're not interested in [x] field anymore, why you're committed to law, why you want to be a lawyer. You'll get asked some of the same things, but I'd wager that you don't have to be as convincing about it. (And, people with work experience, I'm not saying you should freak out, you get to talk about that work experience, so you're fine. I just think that for people who didn't do finance-y, or corporate stuff, the interview advantage is largely overstated/conflated with a maturity advantage).

I say you can improve your GPA because you can. Yes, it is zero sum, but you also are likely to be in a class with a more forgiving curve this term. (your elective) I also say it because my grades improved dramatically spring semester. Do you know what I did differently? I chilled out. No, really, I studied less, I drank more, I spent more time with my friends and I did better. This isn't a "ha ha law school is such a joke" statement (though I believe that at times) but rather an attempt to calm you down a bit. You were successful during your first term. If you continue to do what you did, you'll probably be fine. Most people in that situation are fine. And, to the extent you want to improve, maybe you should stop and ask whether the stress you're putting yourself under is healthy or helpful. Some people really need to work tons of hours to feel OK. If that's you, you do you. But, your post makes you seem stressed. Take time to make yourself happy, whatever that means for you. Your classes aren't that difficult (though I'm sure you worked hard). Preparing for class doesn't need to be your life. You can make spring semester a fun experience and still do well.

If you'd ever like to chat to vent, talk about EIP, talk about grades, talk about avoiding crazy people, feel free to PM me. I like talking neurotic 1Ls down.

ETA: of those 30-40, many found something outside of EIP, and many found work at large firms through 3L EIP. My impression of 3L EIP isn't rosy, but I don't want you to have the impression that those 30 people are all doomed forever. A sizable chunk are in enviable positions (solid smaller firms, v10 firms, (good) fellowships, &c.)

[cron1834]

Employers don't care about nuances in grades to the extent you think they do.

re: EIP stuff, calm down and come July read through old threads/talk to people/practice interviewing

Interviews are a human process. You're not going to be able to whittle it down to a simple formula like you did with law school admissions. You're going to need to let go of that, or it will drive you crazy and make you focus on the wrong things.

ETA: you should be happy with a 3.33—it's fall 1L, you can improve your GPA, and even if you don't, fewer doors have been closed to you than you'd think

I'm amazed by the extent to which CLS 2L/3Ls state the "you can improve your GPA" line. Do you realize that it's a zero sum game, and every single student is trying to improve their GPA?

Also - why does every CLS 2L/3L say at admitted students weekend that "as long as you don't totally mess up 1L you'll be fine," but now that I've actually taken out the loans to go here, everyone on TLS and the rest of the internet says "getting Stone is really the only way to guarantee a job."

As a K-JD 1L at CLS attending at sticker, this whole process has been a mess and I feel like I was duped. "Getting median" doesn't make you safe, even though every 2L/3L you meet at ASW will tell you that it does.

Now that I've taken out soul-crushing loans to go here, I discover that it's Kent/Stone (Something like top 1/3rd?) and then everybody else. Sounds an awful lot like the employment prospects of the top 30 schools other than HYS - except that I got merit $$$ to go to those schools. Like the naive 0L that I was, I enrolled here at sticker because "T6 are the only schools worth going to." But now, assuming I end up non-stone, I will somehow need to develop "amazing" interview skills to get a job in BigLaw because I don't have full-time work experience

SMDH. Feel like an idiot for telling my family that I was in a good place after getting a 3.33. Would do anything to go back in time and not get myself involved in this awful CLS rat-race.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/columbia/2013/

75%+ in biglaw/fed clerk... looks like a lot of non Kent/Stone kids. You will be ok.

Yeah. These ridiculous freakouts fly in the face of numerical facts. Nearly 80% of you will be fine at CLS, and of the remaining 20%, SOME nonzero amount are okay with no biglaw.

Just stop. Get some perspective. K-JDs kill me.

[fats provolone]

sticker at cls seems like a pretty terrible plan though tbh

[utahraptor]

sticker at cls seems like a pretty terrible plan though tbh

yeah, I mean anon is going to be on the PAYE train, I assume

I guess my point is more that the problem is the sticker part and not the CLS part. (yale might be different with their non-law repayment stuff, i guess)

[cron1834]

I didn't catch the sticker part. That's def crazy unless rich parents. Still, that was true regardless of grades, etc.

[BizBro]

I didn't catch the sticker part. That's def crazy unless rich parents. Still, that was true regardless of grades, etc.

There's a bunch of people at sticker at HYS too who think it's worth it.