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I am a second year associate at a V-5 firm in NY with school-aged children. I am enjoying the work but my long commute is starting to wear on me. Also, I am starting to get tired of feeling poor even with a biglaw salary.

I have recently been approached with some opportunities in both Dallas and Houston. A year ago I would not have even thought about Texas, but the thought of a better overall environment/lifestyle for my family is starting to look appealing. I don't have any wild dreams (or even that much interest really) about working less or having a "normal" life, but I am starting to wonder if my family would be better off elsewhere.

A couple of questions for the TLS community (particularly practicing attorneys, but for some of these questions law students may also have some insights):

1. Would I be shooting myself in the foot to leave NY so soon or is the need for NY experience just another way that we comfort ourselves while grunting it out here?

2. Could you offer some thoughts on Houston vs. Dallas? (I do realize that the fact that I have to ask this question outs me as an outsider). I would be interested in thoughts on legal work as well as thoughts on life in general.

3. Are there any firms in particular that I should avoid?

4. What kind of exit options are there from Texas if my family ends up hating it? Am I going to be stuck or is a transition to another market possible? (I do understand that eventually we just have to settle down somewhere. I'm just not sure how many wildcards one gets before he becomes a legitimate flight risk.)

5. Does anyone have any insights on how living in either Houston or Dallas with a family would compare to living in the NYC region?

That's it. I don't have any strong opinions on any of the above, so, contrary to what seems to be TLS tradition, I am not going to be making any argumentative responses to any posts. I am just looking for some additional perspective. Thanks!

.

I have an anecdote that might be (somewhat) relevant:

I summered in a secondary/tertiary market, and several of the summers were deciding between that city and larger markets. For those thinking about starting in NY, the firm took the line of "oh, we understand if you want to go to NY and get some training. If you do, keep in touch—we'd love to hire you back in a few years." For the summer associates thinking about Texas, the firm wasn't nearly as friendly. It was much more "if you go to Texas, firms here probably won't hire you. So you should be sure that's where you want to be."

That's not super-analogous to your situation, since you would have already put in some time in NY before moving to TX. I don't know how that might change how you'd look to firms in tertiary markets.

How much $$$ do you spend on your kids?? Just curious....

Anonymous User wrote:I have an anecdote that might be (somewhat) relevant:

I summered in a secondary/tertiary market, and several of the summers were deciding between that city and larger markets. For those thinking about starting in NY, the firm took the line of "oh, we understand if you want to go to NY (insert big city with large legal market) and get some training. If you do, keep in touch—we'd love to hire you back in a few years." For the summer associates thinking about Texas, the firm wasn't nearly as friendly. It was much more "if you go to Texas, firms here probably won't hire you. So you should be sure that's where you want to be."

That's not super-analogous to your situation, since you would have already put in some time in NY before moving to TX. I don't know how that might change how you'd look to firms in tertiary markets.

hmmmmm I have had a very different experience. Multiple people who summered in Houston/Dallas with me also split either Birmingham or Atlanta. The Bham and Atlanta firms both took the bolded approach. I think people over state the "only NY firm experience is super portable." I know people in Texas who moved from their Texas firm to a NY firm. Of course, I think a V5 will be helpful.

OP - which caliber of firms are you talking about? Are you talking about: V&E, Latham or Baker Botts in Texas? If so, I don't think this will limit you to Texas at all. If you are talking about Jackson Walker or some other small Texas shop - it may be more limiting. The biggest risk would probably be a different area seeing you bail on NY after a short time and then bail on TX after a short time.

mvp99 wrote:How much $$$ do you spend on your kids?? Just curious....

I basically only spend money on them and my wife. Everything costs more with kids. Insurance, housing, clothes, transportation, etc. Not to mention all the random stuff their schools want them to pay for. I'm not going to pretend like life is horrible with a biglaw salary, and I recognize how blessed I am, but with the cost of living in this area it is really hard to get ahead once children enter the picture.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I have an anecdote that might be (somewhat) relevant:

I summered in a secondary/tertiary market, and several of the summers were deciding between that city and larger markets. For those thinking about starting in NY, the firm took the line of "oh, we understand if you want to go to NY (insert big city with large legal market) and get some training. If you do, keep in touch—we'd love to hire you back in a few years." For the summer associates thinking about Texas, the firm wasn't nearly as friendly. It was much more "if you go to Texas, firms here probably won't hire you. So you should be sure that's where you want to be."

That's not super-analogous to your situation, since you would have already put in some time in NY before moving to TX. I don't know how that might change how you'd look to firms in tertiary markets.

hmmmmm I have had a very different experience. Multiple people who summered in Houston/Dallas with me also split either Birmingham or Atlanta. The Bham and Atlanta firms both took the bolded approach. I think people over state the "only NY firm experience is super portable." I know people in Texas who moved from their Texas firm to a NY firm. Of course, I think a V5 will be helpful.

OP - which caliber of firms are you talking about? Are you talking about: V&E, Latham or Baker Botts in Texas? If so, I don't think this will limit you to Texas at all. If you are talking about Jackson Walker or some other small Texas shop - it may be more limiting. The biggest risk would probably be a different area seeing you bail on NY after a short time and then bail on TX after a short time.

OP here. I'm looking at firms with strong nationwide recognition. I'm not that focused on prestige, but I can't see myself leaving the more elite firms this early in my career.

Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

That's easily achievable, then.

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

Move to uptown Dallas and profit. 10 minute commute into downtown, very nice neighborhood suitable for families (townhouses/condos), and decent cultural attractions.

Anonymous User wrote:I am a second year associate at a V-5 firm in NY with school-aged children. I am enjoying the work but my long commute is starting to wear on me. Also, I am starting to get tired of feeling poor even with a biglaw salary.

I have recently been approached with some opportunities in both Dallas and Houston. A year ago I would not have even thought about Texas, but the thought of a better overall environment/lifestyle for my family is starting to look appealing. I don't have any wild dreams (or even that much interest really) about working less or having a "normal" life, but I am starting to wonder if my family would be better off elsewhere.

A couple of questions for the TLS community (particularly practicing attorneys, but for some of these questions law students may also have some insights):

1. Would I be shooting myself in the foot to leave NY so soon or is the need for NY experience just another way that we comfort ourselves while grunting it out here?

2. Could you offer some thoughts on Houston vs. Dallas? (I do realize that the fact that I have to ask this question outs me as an outsider). I would be interested in thoughts on legal work as well as thoughts on life in general.

3. Are there any firms in particular that I should avoid?

4. What kind of exit options are there from Texas if my family ends up hating it? Am I going to be stuck or is a transition to another market possible? (I do understand that eventually we just have to settle down somewhere. I'm just not sure how many wildcards one gets before he becomes a legitimate flight risk.)

5. Does anyone have any insights on how living in either Houston or Dallas with a family would compare to living in the NYC region?

That's it. I don't have any strong opinions on any of the above, so, contrary to what seems to be TLS tradition, I am not going to be making any argumentative responses to any posts. I am just looking for some additional perspective. Thanks!

You will be fine (especially your children, but more on that below).

I am a Texas lifer, whose professional and personal life consists of NYorkers on an every day basis. My office is the satellite remote support. So I work with New Yorkers but remotelly, and the company is has been moving a number of New Yorkers to Dallas for some time, and will continue to do so.

Plus, I have been travelling to New York, every ten weeks, for two weeks for training.

New Yorkers have explained to me "the burroughs" and the NY_COL for basic sh*t, for example:

- Paying $100.00 for steak and vegetables is standard and expected ($60 for the steak and $40 the vegetables)
- Taking your wife to see a show in the city is $500 mininum a night (3 different people on 3 separate occasions have ALL told me this):
a) paying for parking
b) paying for toll
c) paying for tickets
d) paying for show
e) paying for dinner
equals to $500 (at the very least)

ALL OF THAT WILL END WHEN YOU MOVE TO DALLAS.

For example, Capital Grille in New York, the same owner opened one here, which I frequent and always tell the other New Yorkers about. The price here is TOTALLY different. It is still expensive but still doable.

The issue is not so much Houston or Dallas, you already know your options; The issue is your family. You may want to look at cities such as Flowermound, Frisco, Plano, McKinney, The Colony, if you want your children to experience excellent public schools and you "purchasing" a home with New York money in a Texas market. I know a gentlemen from Long Island who moved to The Colony, TX, seven years ago, and customized and built his family's home that would appear unthinkable and un-affordable, but made this purchase with a New York salary

I have been told that my company moved the New Yorkers, but kept their New York pay. So, the people i work with receive New York salary in the Texas market. If the aforementioned, is your situation you have a lot of options.

Houston is gross, hot, and full of fat people. Most of the city is below sea level, and only one highway navigates the city. Dallas, has money, but is not as pretentious as people make it out to be. I am assuming you will be working in Dallas proper, not the suburbs. You could definitely buy a house, drop off your kids in public school (if you live in the suburbs) or private school (if you live in Dallas proper). Which ever firm you pick, as about private schools. A number of your potential associates would have graduated high school from one the Dallas private schools.

happy note for you kids: St. Augustine grass, and bright sunshine. The Weather is perfect today and the sky is crystal clear blue, not a single cloud today; this is most of the year (except the summer, which was mild this year).

Since you are okay with commute, you might as well buy a SILVERADO and enjoy your drive.

Good luck with your decision.

DportIA wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

Move to uptown Dallas and profit. 10 minute commute into downtown, very nice neighborhood suitable for families (townhouses/condos), and decent cultural attractions.

I echo this. I recently signed a lease for a condo in Oak Lawn (gentrified part Dallas close to Highland Park and Uptown, "The Gayborhood") for less than $1,500/mo (1250 sqft, 2BD/2BA, hardwood floors, etc). If you're willing to go out to the suburbs of Dallas (as mentioned above), your commute wont be bad as long as you're working big law hours. Plano, Frisco, Allen all have outstanding public schools and dirt cheap real estate compared to NY.

Houston is fine but it's even more spread out than Dallas and your commute may be longer should you choose to live in the suburbs.

I can't comment on your biglaw dilemma as I don't work in biglaw but I'm able to provide a very comfortable living situation for my girlfriend and myself on a non-biglaw salary. I'm not pinching pennies either. Lots of great entertainment/ dining to be had on the cheap.

DportIA wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

Move to uptown Dallas and profit. 10 minute commute into downtown, very nice neighborhood suitable for families (townhouses/condos), and decent cultural attractions.

OP, will then have to pay for private school. No way in hell, would he put his kids in public school if he is living Uptown.

OP,
you could move to Highland Park, (which is the best city in D-FW for its access to downtown, its schools, and lifestyle, and is near SMU, where Bush built his library). There are townhomes but they are so hard to get but your children would go to HP School District, which is arguably one of the best in the nation. OP, if you move to Dallas, you should move somewhere easy for you and your family in the short term because the other associates at your new firm will help you get the best deal for a long term solution. Everything in Dallas is word of mouth and nepotism is the word of the day. But Dallas loves its attorneys, even if they are transplants. If you meet someone at your firm who graduated from a Dallas high school, they would direct you to the best resources to help you buy a house and choose the school for your children.

You should take a look at Highland Park / University Park, OP
1. Highland Park Village for your wife (lifestyle expectations)
2. Highland Park / University Park schools for your kids
3. Very decent commute for you, to work
4. Cops who do not f**ck around, when it comes to people who do not live in HP or UP

These homes are beautiful and maybe affordable with a New York salary. You and your wife should look at the homes on Versailles in HP and compare with NY prices.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I have an anecdote that might be (somewhat) relevant:

I summered in a secondary/tertiary market, and several of the summers were deciding between that city and larger markets. For those thinking about starting in NY, the firm took the line of "oh, we understand if you want to go to NY (insert big city with large legal market) and get some training. If you do, keep in touch—we'd love to hire you back in a few years." For the summer associates thinking about Texas, the firm wasn't nearly as friendly. It was much more "if you go to Texas, firms here probably won't hire you. So you should be sure that's where you want to be."

That's not super-analogous to your situation, since you would have already put in some time in NY before moving to TX. I don't know how that might change how you'd look to firms in tertiary markets.

hmmmmm I have had a very different experience. Multiple people who summered in Houston/Dallas with me also split either Birmingham or Atlanta. The Bham and Atlanta firms both took the bolded approach. I think people over state the "only NY firm experience is super portable." I know people in Texas who moved from their Texas firm to a NY firm. Of course, I think a V5 will be helpful.

OP - which caliber of firms are you talking about? Are you talking about: V&E, Latham or Baker Botts in Texas? If so, I don't think this will limit you to Texas at all. If you are talking about Jackson Walker or some other small Texas shop - it may be more limiting. The biggest risk would probably be a different area seeing you bail on NY after a short time and then bail on TX after a short time.

OP here. I'm looking at firms with strong nationwide recognition. I'm not that focused on prestige, but I can't see myself leaving the more elite firms this early in my career.

OP have you looked at Baker Botts in Dallas?
They recruited a 17 year vet from the CFTC. I state this because I assume you have a securities background, because you are from NY.

Anonymous User wrote:Paying $100.00 for steak and vegetables is standard and expected ($60 for the steak and $40 the vegetables)

damn... I hope I never become a person that thinks ordinarily spending $200-300 on dinner is ok (in Texas or NYC)

DportIA wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

Move to uptown Dallas and profit. 10 minute commute into downtown, very nice neighborhood suitable for families (townhouses/condos), and decent cultural attractions.

I wouldn't really call uptown a family-friendly area. Plus, DISD is terrible.

In 2011, ~$68k in Dallas/Houston went as far as $160k in NYC. Source: http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2011. You'll have different expenses here (car/commute costs), and might be tempted to upgrade your living situation, which will close that surplus of cash. All things equal though, there will be much more money to put towards the family/saving/vacations/etc.

Anonymous User wrote: The Weather is perfect today and the sky is crystal clear blue, not a single cloud today; this is most of the year (except the summer, which was mild this year)..

This is sort of misleading. Yes, the past couple of weeks have been nice, but it's not normal. Summer starts in May and usually doesn't end until now, and the fact that we only had a few days over 100 makes it a very mild summer. Days over 100 during that time period are typically anywhere from 30-50.

kalvano wrote:

DportIA wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:Are you looking at the city or the suburbs? If you're looking at the suburbs, what kind of commute do you have now that's killing you? Because it's not likely to get a lot better if you live in the suburbs.

My commute now is about an hour and a half. Anything under an hour would feel awesome.

Move to uptown Dallas and profit. 10 minute commute into downtown, very nice neighborhood suitable for families (townhouses/condos), and decent cultural attractions.

I wouldn't really call uptown a family-friendly area. Plus, DISD is terrible.

Compared to what--NYC or Coppell? OP is coming from one of those, looking to minimize commute, and I assume maintain proximity to eateries/arts/entertainment. The cost difference between a townhome in uptown and a single family home in HP can be much greater than the annual cost of private school tuition.

For OP, here are some relevant postings on Zillow in the discussed neighborhoods:

Uptown http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3321- ... 9577_zpid/

HP http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4415- ... 2618_zpid/ (Cheapest home I saw, but right on main drag in Highland Park). Here's a condo: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4704- ... 6620_zpid/

Plano: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3705- ... 1679_zpid/

DportIA wrote:Compared to what--NYC or Coppell? OP is coming from one of those, looking to minimize commute, and I assume maintain proximity to eateries/arts/entertainment. The cost difference between a townhome in uptown and a single family home in HP can be much greater than the annual cost of private school tuition.

But uptown isn't really comparable to NYC. It's nice, but it's not an area where people tend to choose to raise kids and live their lives.

Also, it's silly to use the cost of a home in HP as a basis for comparison. I'm looking at moving soon, and the least expensive home I could find in the Park Cities was $700K (that was at least 1800 SF), with most being closer to $1M. To put that into perspective, a nice home in Flower Mound (which is about a 30 minute commute to downtown Dallas) will run about $375K. And Flower Mound schools are significantly better than DISD.

kalvano wrote:

Anonymous User wrote: The Weather is perfect today and the sky is crystal clear blue, not a single cloud today; this is most of the year (except the summer, which was mild this year)..

This is sort of misleading. Yes, the past couple of weeks have been nice, but it's not normal. Summer starts in May and usually doesn't end until now, and the fact that we only had a few days over 100 makes it a very mild summer. Days over 100 during that time period are typically anywhere from 30-50.

The issue with the weather is completely subjective. It is Spring in May, and it has been officially fall since September and the weather has been great. In fact, the weather has been wonderful all year.

The past 10-15 years, The weather was very amenable most of the year, and the summers were hot. -

This year was one of the coolest summers on record. The late 1990s had the hottest summers on record. The past ten years have been typical hot summers and amenable the remainder of the year.

If Summer starts in May for you, then that is your Texas weight talking.

Anonymous User wrote:

kalvano wrote:

Anonymous User wrote: The Weather is perfect today and the sky is crystal clear blue, not a single cloud today; this is most of the year (except the summer, which was mild this year)..

This is sort of misleading. Yes, the past couple of weeks have been nice, but it's not normal. Summer starts in May and usually doesn't end until now, and the fact that we only had a few days over 100 makes it a very mild summer. Days over 100 during that time period are typically anywhere from 30-50.

The issue with the weather is completely subjective. It is Spring in May, and it has been officially fall since September and the weather has been great. In fact, the weather has been wonderful all year.

The past 10-15 years, The weather was very amenable most of the year, and the summers were hot. -

This year was one of the coolest summers on record. The late 1990s had the hottest summers on record. The past ten years have been typical hot summers and amenable the remainder of the year.

If Summer starts in May for you, then that is your Texas weight talking.

Sorry, I don't give a shit what the official calendar says, when it can and does hit 100 degrees in a month, that month counts as a summer month.

I was a summer associate for two years in Houston and got the fuck out of dodge after. Texas isn't for everyone, but if you have kids, it's a good deal. Here are my stream of consciousness thoughts:

* A lot of the big NYC firms are establishing Houston offices. I know when I was there, associates were being worked to death. This isn't a bad thing -- there was work to be done. Also, I think "worked to death" in Houston = normal NYC hours.

* The big Texas firms -- Baker Botts, Vinson & Elkins, Fulbright (now Norton Rose Fulbright) -- were changing the way they did things trying to compete. They payed the same rate as the NYC firms for first years (with lower lockstep) but required fewer hours. I think a lot of partners were poached because they could make more money at the NYC transplants with more leverage.

*Houston was stupid cheap. I had an apartment a 5 min drive into work around a bunch of restaurants and bars for like $1200 a month. Many of the 3rd year associates owned houses and shit. Solid condos within 20 min of downtown are going for around $300-500k. I think Dallas is more expensive. I grew up in the DC area so I'm probably a bad judge of normal COL.

* My firm was part of big time deals. I was in the project finance / energy practice and related M&A so that might not be the same for you.

* My firm's litigation practice seemed like they didn't have that much work. I think litigation was slow everywhere, but IDK.

* Yeah, it's hot as balls in Texas. It's also humid as balls in Houston. It's really not so bad though. You get used to it and EVERYWHERE has central A/C. And in Houston there are tunnels downtown so you don't even have to go outside to get lunch.

* Houston v. Dallas. Houston is more working class. Inside the loop is nice and there is a shit ton of wealth there, but it isn't as flashy as Dallas. I actually think Houston is a beautiful city -- The mesquite trees everywhere, the decent skyline downtown, the trendy village like places (Kirby/River Oaks/Midtown/West University/Museum District). That said, Houston is also a ugly, sprawling clusterfuck outside the 610 loop. I never went outside the loop. Dallas kind of had a LA vibe to me, but I've never lived there.

I decided to clerk and not go back to Texas. I was in a relationship and thinking about getting married and starting a family when I thought Texas was a good idea. Then I became single and my brain started working again. It seems that ship has sailed for you though.