Clarification on Biglaw Hours Forum

[Anonymous User]

We only fire people for affirmatively bad work product.

What the fuck do you call the dood who sucks and only gets shit work, if not someone who does bad work product?

I think y'all are kinda on the same page. Didn't anon say guy would be gone within the year. It's jsut a function of getting enough shit work and voluntarily leaving or eventually the firm looking over its finances and realizing, yeah this guy needs to go. Could be a couple months, could be a year sounds like.

he said he won't get fired, but I don't believe it.

I'm not the anon who said that (but am the anon who seconded that whole you-do-shitty-work-you'll-get-shitty-work point) and at my firm we never had anyone like that who stuck around long enough to find out if they'd actually get fired eventually. After two years of completely inane assignments and doc review (and watching your peers get far, FAR more interesting things to work on with significantly more responsibility), you get pretty desperate and will take most any other job that comes along, even if the firm hasn't asked you to leave.

An associate there would only get told to find a new job in the next six months if they (a) literally just didn't do the work they were given (rather than doing a bad job on it), (b) repeatedly failed to make deadlines, or (c) billed clients for work they weren't actually doing.

[Desert Fox]

That is probably right. And you'd be smart to leave. You don't want to stunt your career.

However, a lot of "voluntary" laterals are really stealth lay offs. Not all, but more than zero. Even more are: get a bad review, then they leave on your own because after review two you do get fired.

[r6_philly]

he said he won't get fired, but I don't believe it.

Do we ever know whether someone left or was fired? What's the incentive to tell people u were fired?

[Danger Zone]

can you define really shitting the bed? How junior is he and how complex was the assignment?

A white dude who got caught crying in his office after he made a mistake by a white male older lawyer. As I was told over drinks, "the problem is not crying in your office, but not remembering to close the door before you cry." He'd had a couple of unprofessional moments in front of clients before that, and the crying episode just confirmed the image of a guy who couldn't be trusted to hold it together under stress. Just like that <snaps fingers>, it was over.

Was there a point to mentioning that they were both white men other than to make people uncomfortable?

[Desert Fox]

he said he won't get fired, but I don't believe it.

Do we ever know whether someone left or was fired? What's the incentive to tell people u were fired?

When 50% of the associates in a group in my office where fired, nobody knew until the last guy essentially couldn't find a new gig within his severance period. Everyone just assumed the first 4 associates who left was natural attrition. At least 3 were fired, and the 4th either was or saw the writing on the wall.

[Desert Fox]

lol at crying at work as a "man."

[MKC]

lol at crying at work as a "man."

I get swearing or alcoholism, but crying as a dude about work is pretty weak.

[arklaw13]

can you define really shitting the bed? How junior is he and how complex was the assignment?

A white dude who got caught crying in his office after he made a mistake by a white male older lawyer. As I was told over drinks, "the problem is not crying in your office, but not remembering to close the door before you cry." He'd had a couple of unprofessional moments in front of clients before that, and the crying episode just confirmed the image of a guy who couldn't be trusted to hold it together under stress. Just like that <snaps fingers>, it was over.

Was there a point to mentioning that they were both white men other than to make people uncomfortable?

Because Patriarchy

[Anonymous User]

Funny these responses are. I actually am in ERISA

[Anonymous User]

can you define really shitting the bed? How junior is he and how complex was the assignment?

A white dude who got caught crying in his office after he made a mistake by a white male older lawyer. As I was told over drinks, "the problem is not crying in your office, but not remembering to close the door before you cry." He'd had a couple of unprofessional moments in front of clients before that, and the crying episode just confirmed the image of a guy who couldn't be trusted to hold it together under stress. Just like that <snaps fingers>, it was over.

Was there a point to mentioning that they were both white men other than to make people uncomfortable?

If you don't get why that was relevant to the story, I don't even know what to tell you. You're in for a surprise when you start working.

[Anonymous User]

And I don't have student loans either. Haha It's not "MENTAL FREEDOM," dip shit.

And the people do suck. Clearly.

[ymmv]

can you define really shitting the bed? How junior is he and how complex was the assignment?

A white dude who got caught crying in his office after he made a mistake by a white male older lawyer. As I was told over drinks, "the problem is not crying in your office, but not remembering to close the door before you cry." He'd had a couple of unprofessional moments in front of clients before that, and the crying episode just confirmed the image of a guy who couldn't be trusted to hold it together under stress. Just like that <snaps fingers>, it was over.

Was there a point to mentioning that they were both white men other than to make people uncomfortable?

If you don't get why that was relevant to the story, I don't even know what to tell you. You're in for a surprise when you start working.

This vaguebooking just took a turn for the bizarre.

[Danger Zone]

Should I be surprised that the legal profession is dominated by white males or something?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I presumed the point was to make clear that this wasn't a case of harassment/racism/other kind of invidious discrimination.

[arklaw13]

This thread is depressing as fuck.

[Danger Zone]

I presumed the point was to make clear that this wasn't a case of harassment/racism/other kind of invidious discrimination.

But no one had even insinuated that. It just came out of the blue.

[skers]

I mean we'd just assume someone like an Asian male would be a crier right

[BiglawAssociate]

And I don't have student loans either. Haha It's not "MENTAL FREEDOM," dip shit.

And the people do suck. Clearly.

Then LOL. Not sure why you're even in biglaw if you're crying all the time........

[sinfiery]

its always so depressing reading about this

any stories of 3rd years or something beating this absurd inefficiency? Maybe living 10 minutes from work and not coming in or staying in the office long until you get the email that there's stuff to do?

Or do you never get to the point where people give you work via email if you aren't in the office?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I presumed the point was to make clear that this wasn't a case of harassment/racism/other kind of invidious discrimination.

But no one had even insinuated that. It just came out of the blue.

So it was intended to head off any future insinuations? I'm not saying I was right, just saying that's how I explained it when I read it. skers' explanation makes a lot more sense, though.

[BiglawAssociate]

Every firms fires people like this. There will be more juniors next year. Eventually the partners find a new dog. This guys hours drop and he's gone. Or they might not drop and they'll fire them anyway.

We don't. We only fire people for affirmatively bad work product. Guy who gets onto the non-prospect track for whatever reason, but keeps doing his job OK, basically gets to stick around for 3-5 years. It's good business - keep folks around long enough so that they can place well into their second job, and you've made a career-long client.

This. At my firm happiness with the hours depended greatly on the kind of work you got as an associate, and the kind of work you got as an associate depended largely on how you performed. If you did less-than-stellar work early on, you ended up doing mostly doc review and other boring things, and suddenly even a 1900-hour year is miserable. If you impressed the right people early on, you got pulled into fascinating stuff with a consistent workflow and didn't see 2300 hours as that crazy/exhausting. Most people are somewhere in the middle of that, but it's definitely a spectrum and there are people on both the low and the high end.

Also, if you got on the good side of the right people early on, they would protect you from boring assignments or stupid fire drills that could've been avoided if someone higher up had planned better.

Bingo. Not all assignments are created equal, not all hours are created equal. Some biglaw work is - believe it or not - fun - but there's not that much of the fun stuff and there's pretty intense competition to get in the group of associates to whom good assignments get channeled.

can you define really shitting the bed? How junior is he and how complex was the assignment?

A white dude who got caught crying in his office after he made a mistake by a white male older lawyer. As I was told over drinks, "the problem is not crying in your office, but not remembering to close the door before you cry." He'd had a couple of unprofessional moments in front of clients before that, and the crying episode just confirmed the image of a guy who couldn't be trusted to hold it together under stress. Just like that <snaps fingers>, it was over.

So it wasn't really his work product...it's the fact that he's aspie as shit.

[sinfiery]

So it wasn't really his work product...it's the fact that he's aspie as shit.

your definition of aspie doesn't seem to be medically related

[Desert Fox]

yea people with autism doesn't have feelings.

[sublime]

..

[ymmv]

I mean we'd just assume someone like an Asian male would be a crier right

You would think if any stereotypical assumptions applied here they would be of a femme gay dude, not a race thing, but idk. It's still a weird fucking post.