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How much of this is padding?

Desert Fox wrote:Location: Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255

only 8 hours a day for like every day of the year...

comon... suck it up

user has been outed and warned for posting anon to hide the fact that he's a 0L posting in legal employment. GTFO louie.

Anonymous User wrote:only 8 hours a day for like every day of the year...

comon... suck it up

Do you know what a billable hour is?

As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Desert Fox wrote:How much of this is padding?

(accidentally leaves timer running overnight, says fuck it)

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

I'd add person to person. A guy I work with will deduct time it took him to sneeze.

You'd think that with smaller billing rates, it would be easier to collect but its actually the opposite. Cheap clients are cheap. Rich clients are rich. The rich ones are less likely to give you shit about the bill.

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Hours billed to the client and how much I actually put into the system are different

Partners may write down stuff but I bill it all

How efficient I am depends on what I'm doing

If I'm cranking on a big project due same day I'm laser focused an can bill 8 hrs in approx 8.5 hrs

If I jump around from task to task I lose time in transition

baal hadad wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Hours billed to the client and how much I actually put into the system are different

Partners may write down stuff but I bill it all

How efficient I am depends on what I'm doing

If I'm cranking on a big project due same day I'm laser focused an can bill 8 hrs in approx 8.5 hrs

If I jump around from task to task I lose time in transition

There must still be some client accountability creeping in tho. Otherwise, why wouldn't you bill the revving up time you spend transitioning into a new project? I'd assume that you feel a need to have some work product that justifies the billable hours you're saying you worked. You're worrying about justifying them to the partner, but I'd imagine there's an element of "Are these hours at all reasonable in comparison to your value add for the client?"

kcdc1 wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Hours billed to the client and how much I actually put into the system are different

Partners may write down stuff but I bill it all

How efficient I am depends on what I'm doing

If I'm cranking on a big project due same day I'm laser focused an can bill 8 hrs in approx 8.5 hrs

If I jump around from task to task I lose time in transition

There must still be some client accountability creeping in tho. Otherwise, why wouldn't you bill the revving up time you spend transitioning into a new project? I'd assume that you feel a need to have some work product that justifies the billable hours you're saying you worked. You're worrying about justifying them to the partner, but I'd imagine there's an element of "Are these hours at all reasonable in comparison to your value add for the client?"

That's billing like a girl. Fuck that noise. bill every god damn second.

Desert Fox wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

I'd add person to person. A guy I work with will deduct time it took him to sneeze.

You'd think that with smaller billing rates, it would be easier to collect but its actually the opposite. Cheap clients are cheap. Rich clients are rich. The rich ones are less likely to give you shit about the bill.

How much time do you deduct per post

It is not only possible, it is essential

.

In all seriousness, 2600 in corporate isn't particularly fun, but it's also not hard to do. Get staffed on a big, complex transaction like a big M&A deal or an IPO and you can rack up a couple of 300 hour months before you know it. And after that, 10 months to bill 2000 is routine.

baal hadad wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Hours billed to the client and how much I actually put into the system are different

Partners may write down stuff but I bill it all

How efficient I am depends on what I'm doing

If I'm cranking on a big project due same day I'm laser focused an can bill 8 hrs in approx 8.5 hrs

If I jump around from task to task I lose time in transition

Isn't it the opposite?

If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

It is soul crushing. Given the nature of how law firms operate, and your own declining inefficiency after a few months of this, this pace will turn into being at work until 9-10 every weekday (with the occasional 3 am night thrown in) and most of the weekend. Barely enough time to do basic life errands, let alone stay in shape or see friends and family.

englawyer wrote: If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

Is rounding down just not done? Since when does 1min or 2min = 6min?

englawyer wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Hours billed to the client and how much I actually put into the system are different

Partners may write down stuff but I bill it all

How efficient I am depends on what I'm doing

If I'm cranking on a big project due same day I'm laser focused an can bill 8 hrs in approx 8.5 hrs

If I jump around from task to task I lose time in transition

Isn't it the opposite?

If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

I think most people would probably only round up for the last increment of the day on that matter. I.e. you work 19 minutes (0.4), but then later you work 38 minutes (0.7) on the same matter, you've got 57 minutes total so you'll only put 1.0 total, not 1.1. So unless you've got like 30 different matters at a time, what you describe wouldn't be so helpful. But I don't know, man, there seem to be remarkably few actual rules about how this should work.

checkers wrote:

englawyer wrote: If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

Is rounding down just not done? Since when does 1min or 2min = 6min?

this is dumb law student hypothesizing, it's not remotely relevant

englawyer wrote:Isn't it the opposite?

If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

19 minutes is a .3. I'm not billing a client an extra .1 for one minute of work. I don't feel comfortable billing a .1 until I'm closer to 3-4 minutes on something. I might bill a .1 for that 2 minute task, depending on what it is, but most things don't take that short an amount of time. If it's that short, I will usually "bill no charge" it so it shows up on the bill but isn't charged.

Anonymous User wrote:
In all seriousness, 2600 in corporate isn't particularly fun, but it's also not hard to do. Get staffed on a big, complex transaction like a big M&A deal or an IPO and you can rack up a couple of 300 hour months before you know it. And after that, 10 months to bill 2000 is routine.

Everything about that sounds awful.

nickelanddime wrote:It is soul crushing. Given the nature of how law firms operate, and your own declining inefficiency after a few months of this, this pace will turn into being at work until 9-10 every weekday (with the occasional 3 am night thrown in) and most of the weekend. Barely enough time to do basic life errands, let alone stay in shape or see friends and family.

^ exactly that.

I still maintain it's a fair trade - it's not like we come out of law school with any useful skills or knowledge, and $160,000 is a truly ridiculous and princely sum of money.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

englawyer wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

Hours billed to the client and how much I actually put into the system are different

Partners may write down stuff but I bill it all

How efficient I am depends on what I'm doing

If I'm cranking on a big project due same day I'm laser focused an can bill 8 hrs in approx 8.5 hrs

If I jump around from task to task I lose time in transition

Isn't it the opposite?

If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

I think most people would probably only round up for the last increment of the day on that matter. I.e. you work 19 minutes (0.4), but then later you work 38 minutes (0.7) on the same matter, you've got 57 minutes total so you'll only put 1.0 total, not 1.1. So unless you've got like 30 different matters at a time, what you describe wouldn't be so helpful. But I don't know, man, there seem to be remarkably few actual rules about how this should work.

Assuming all the work is for the same client:

If the client wants task-billing (one entry per task), I will put entries like I listed here (1.3 hours). If the client wants block billing, I would only bill 1 hour. So maybe clients should prefer block billing...although I can see the merits in task-based billing as well.

kalvano wrote:

englawyer wrote:Isn't it the opposite?

If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

19 minutes is a .3. I'm not billing a client an extra .1 for one minute of work. I don't feel comfortable billing a .1 until I'm closer to 3-4 minutes on something. I might bill a .1 for that 2 minute task, depending on what it is, but most things don't take that short an amount of time. If it's that short, I will usually "bill no charge" it so it shows up on the bill but isn't charged.

For me, the "2 minute task" really only comes up for what I consider off-hour emails. If someone emails me on Saturday afternoon when I am out and about, I bill for "email communication with X" even if it was only a quick response that took me less than two minutes.

I don't know how billing works in your firms, but with us, it's a click to activate, click to deactivate timer, and the timer will automatically round up. Basically spending a second on a matter is sufficient to incur a .1 billable hour. Now granted, of course, over the course of a day, you are likely to be revisiting the same matters multiple times so any rounding up will be canceled out by the aggregation of time billed, and at most you will be overbilling a client by .1 hours in any single day, but I think it's possible to come close to at least an 80-90% efficiency of hours billed.

Other than sitting around, twiddling thumbs, and waiting for work, what can you be doing in the office that you're not billing? I've heard other associates joke about how when they're going to the bathroom, they're thinking about the client matter, so the clock is ticking. I stayed late one evening and (after 9) the senior associate told me to keep the clock running while we were waiting for our client to get back to us, since the client technically had our complete and undivided attention, ready to go the moment they got back to us. So I sat there reading the wsj, with the clock running. Is this not kosher in most firms?

All of these observations are from summering, my work hasn't started yet, so please don't out me.

911 crisis actor wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

kcdc1 wrote:As a 2L, I do wonder if the "billable hour" varies firm-to-firm, group-to-group, and client-to-client. On CB's, I spoke to associates that claimed they worked 60 to bill 40 and at other firms, the associates seemed to work 46 to bill 45. Does having a lower hourly rate ($/hr) translate into higher billing efficiency because clients are more willing to pay for hours when they're cheaper?

I'd add person to person. A guy I work with will deduct time it took him to sneeze.

You'd think that with smaller billing rates, it would be easier to collect but its actually the opposite. Cheap clients are cheap. Rich clients are rich. The rich ones are less likely to give you shit about the bill.

How much time do you deduct per post

I think this is a valid question for DF.

englawyer wrote:

kalvano wrote:

englawyer wrote:Isn't it the opposite?

If an hour looks like this:

Task 1 takes 19 minutes (.4)
Task 2 takes 25 minutes (.5)
Task 3 takes 2 minutes (.1)
Task 4 takes 14 minutes (.3)

Then you have billed 1.3 hours in 1 hour ethically.

19 minutes is a .3. I'm not billing a client an extra .1 for one minute of work. I don't feel comfortable billing a .1 until I'm closer to 3-4 minutes on something. I might bill a .1 for that 2 minute task, depending on what it is, but most things don't take that short an amount of time. If it's that short, I will usually "bill no charge" it so it shows up on the bill but isn't charged.

For me, the "2 minute task" really only comes up for what I consider off-hour emails. If someone emails me on Saturday afternoon when I am out and about, I bill for "email communication with X" even if it was only a quick response that took me less than two minutes.

I don't bill those because clients tend to get bitchy about a lot of .1's for "correspondence with..." I usually end up adding a .1 or a .2 to substantive work if I know I've had a lot of emails that I didn't bill. That way I get my time back without having to litter the bill with random .1's.