Top Law Schools

Interested in litigation, but beyond that don't have too much of an idea of what I want.

Anonymous User wrote:Interested in litigation, but beyond that don't have too much of an idea of what I want.

MTO, assuming you don't have a strong preference for DC.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Interested in litigation, but beyond that don't have too much of an idea of what I want.

MTO, assuming you don't have a strong preference for DC.

+1

you could also inquire about splitting.

Isn't it common to go to MTO for only the second half of your summer? I was at one of the big-class DC firms last summer and there was at least one person who did DC 1st half / MTO 2nd half. Do that. Give yourself two options and make some extra cash at the best job in existence.

As for Covington vs. Wilmer, it's basically hair splitting. IIRC Wilmer's Chambers ranking is higher in lit, but I don't think that distinction is borne out by their actual reputation AFAIK. I'd probably choose Cov just because I think Wilmer is still doing that "deferred compensation" thing for years 3 and on where they withhold part of your salary until the end of the year, when you probably get it all in a "merit-based bonus." Seems pretty TTT to me. Double check that, though, because I'm not sure.

Elston Gunn wrote:Isn't it common to go to MTO for only the second half of your summer? I was at one of the big-class DC firms lsat summer and there was at least one person who did DC 1st half / MTO 2nd half. Do that. Give yourself two options and make some extra cash at the best job in existence.

I'll be doing that with MTO and another DC firm this summer. OP, take this advice.

MTO's offer rate hovers between 80-90% every year. Given the level of competition I'm not sure anyone can be confident they won't be in that 10-20%.

Elston Gunn wrote:Isn't it common to go to MTO for only the second half of your summer? I was at one of the big-class DC firms last summer and there was at least one person who did DC 1st half / MTO 2nd half. Do that. Give yourself two options and make some extra cash at the best job in existence.

they do allow second half splits, but its basically impossible if you're stanford/chicago because you don't finish finals till june and then you run out of weeks to complete at each firm. MTO will want you for minimum of 7 and Cov/Wilmer for 8.

If you're Harvard/Columbia/ect on semesters you can definitely try. You might have to cut into your finals or request to stay late in August.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Interested in litigation, but beyond that don't have too much of an idea of what I want.

MTO, assuming you don't have a strong preference for DC.

+1

you could also inquire about splitting.

Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

What is the differed competition thing.

Desert Fox wrote:What is the differed competition thing.

I may be haluccianating. I could swear Wilmer paid below market from year 3 or 4 on, and then paid bonuses to make up the difference that were somewhat variable based on "merit" but a quick google isn't turning it up. Apologies if I'm slowly descending into madness.

EDIT: Not crazy:

We provide a market lockstep base salary for first, second, and third-year associates and a tiered base salary program for senior associates and counsel. This gradual approach from lockstep to tiers allows our junior associates to focus on the development of their skills and to adjust to the demands of private practice, without tying a significant portion of their compensation to a performance-based bonus. By the time our lawyers reach the senior associate and counsel level, we believe it is appropriate to place a greater emphasis on individual performance and, therefore, as seniority increases, a greater amount of total compensation is placed in the bonus. Those who are meeting and exceeding our high expectations are rewarded at or greater than market levels.

Your base is below market from year 4 on, and your bonus can get you anywhere from below to above market, I guess.

Elston Gunn wrote:Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

Does someone who has an offer from Munger really need to worry about offers in general? Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

Does someone who has an offer from Munger really need to worry about offers in general? Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

No offered is a kiss of death for anyone.

Desert Fox wrote:

VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

Does someone who has an offer from Munger really need to worry about offers in general? Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

No offered is a kiss of death for anyone.

Splitting anon above. I think the idea is that no one is actually going to know and it's common to say shit like, my fiancee took a job in DC so now I don't want to live in LA anymore. And if you have the credentials for MTO you're probably going to land on your feet post-clerkship.

MTO takes a summer class of ~25 for a firm with like 180-190 attorneys. They lose people post-clerkship a lot. Hard to know whether a former summer looking in another market during his/her clerkship was no offered or just wants to live somewhere else.

edit: I guess the other firm could just ask. I don't know the politics of that situation. But it's hard for me to imagine munger no-offers really struggling out to land a post-clerk gig.

VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

Does someone who has an offer from Munger really need to worry about offers in general? Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

I mean, look at the post-clerkship hiring thread here or the xo thread that was linked in the "when to clerk" thread. An HYS grad with 1 yr Big Law --> D.Ct --> COA had to return reluctantly to his original firm, because he got zero other bites on the market. Obviously coming off a clerkship and with presumably great grades with a no offer is better than neither of those things and a no offer, but it's still a significant risk. And that's true even assuming the other firms never realize you've been no-offered. There just isn't very much post-clerkship or 3L hiring at the moment.

Elston Gunn wrote:

VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

Does someone who has an offer from Munger really need to worry about offers in general? Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

I mean, look at the post-clerkship hiring thread here or the xo thread that was linked in the "when to clerk" thread. An HYS grad with 1 yr Big Law --> D.Ct --> COA had to return reluctantly to his original firm, because he got zero other bites on the market. Obviously coming off a clerkship and with presumably great grades with a no offer is better than neither of those things and a no offer, but it's still a significant risk. And that's true even assuming the other firms never realize you've been no-offered. There just isn't very much post-clerkship or 3L hiring at the moment.

Lit is dying. Not many firms have a huge need for more litigators.

Anonymous User wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:Makes sense. Split if you can. But if you can't, I'd recommend a D.C. firm unless you want to be in California badly. I wouldn't take the risk of an 80-90% offer shop when I have two excellent, virtually 100% offer options.

Does someone who has an offer from Munger really need to worry about offers in general? Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

No offered is a kiss of death for anyone.

Splitting anon above. I think the idea is that no one is actually going to know and it's common to say shit like, my fiancee took a job in DC so now I don't want to live in LA anymore. And if you have the credentials for MTO you're probably going to land on your feet post-clerkship.

MTO takes a summer class of ~25 for a firm with like 180-190 attorneys. They lose people post-clerkship a lot. Hard to know whether a former summer looking in another market during his/her clerkship was no offered or just wants to live somewhere else.

edit: I guess the other firm could just ask. I don't know the politics of that situation. But it's hard for me to imagine munger no-offers really struggling out to land a post-clerk gig.

MTO summers who do not return after clerkship are mostly heading to top corporate practices (Cravath/SullCrom) in NYC or going into the public sector. They are not choosing other litigation shops over MTO.

Anonymous User wrote: MTO summers who do not return after clerkship are mostly heading to top corporate practices (Cravath/SullCrom) in NYC or going into the public sector. They are not choosing other litigation shops over MTO.

Yeah, I'm sure no one interested in lit has ever decided they didn't actually want to live in California nearly 3 years after accepting the original SA offer.

VulcanVulcanVulcan wrote:Plus this person won't actually get to MTO without one-plus years of clerking.

I think you're thinking about Susman.

Elston Gunn wrote:

Anonymous User wrote: MTO summers who do not return after clerkship are mostly heading to top corporate practices (Cravath/SullCrom) in NYC or going into the public sector. They are not choosing other litigation shops over MTO.

Yeah, I'm sure no one interested in lit has ever decided they didn't actually want to live in California nearly 3 years after accepting the original SA offer.

Basically everything in that anon statement aside from the public sector note isn't true. It's more common that Cravath/ect summers who clerk push to start at MTO off their clerkship (take a look at mto/irell/keker firm bios: lots of top ny transplants, "affiliated with" csm/s&c/davis). Conversely, Munger lit summers who clerk aren't trying to head back to large new york transactional practices.. That's patently ridiculous. Although, some of them will jump ship to KVN or Susman for the superior compensation, and of course people leave when they have to move across the country.