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Haven't officially struck out yet, but its looking like it. At at T20, was top 1/3 after 1st semester, top 20% now. I'm assuming I've gone 0/6 on callbacks. I'll have ~110K debt on graduation. I really wanted transactional. Already mass-mailed/hustled.

I have a job at a small that will keep me as a clerk indefinitely, but can't guarantee a full-time position when I graduate. I like my job, but I've gotten so bitter on everything law & lawyers. I had really strong grades in undergrad, so I could probably hit my feet running in some position. K-JD, of course.

What should I weight in making this decision? I'm rational enough to know that both stay & go could be the correct response. I'm just a bit too on edge right to now to make a clear decision. In either case, I'm committed through this semester.

Edit: If I do drop out, since I'm a pathetic striver, I'll probably try to position myself for a top MBA in 3-5 years.

Anonymous User wrote:Haven't officially struck out yet, but its looking like it. At at T20, was top 1/3 after 1st semester, top 20% now. I'm assuming I've gone 0/6 on callbacks. I'll have ~110K debt on graduation. I really wanted transactional. Already mass-mailed/hustled.

I have a job at a small that will keep me as a clerk indefinitely, but can't guarantee a full-time position when I graduate. I like my job, but I've gotten so bitter on everything law & lawyers. I had really strong grades in undergrad, so I could probably hit my feet running in some position. K-JD, of course.

What should I weight in making this decision? I'm rational enough to know that both stay & go could be the correct response. I'm just a bit too on edge right to now to make a clear decision. In either case, I'm committed through this semester.

Don't drop out, you'll probably figure it out. You have good stats. Broaden your job search criteria. Once you're in the door, you can better steer your career.

You're anon

What t20

baal hadad wrote:You're anon

What t20

George Washingtttton

Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

hoos89 wrote:Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

K-MBA is dumb

If you drop out now your current debt (40kish) is manageable with a 50k job.

If you don't the risk and reward is probably greater.

It's still September - you can still get big law. Striking out and getting 3L is hard. You need a firm you could have gotten this year if you had the grades you'll have next year to have no offered/had someone turn them down AND overlook you not having an SA.

You haven't struck out yet. Keep mass mailing. If you strike out it's personal circumstances. Is your family kinda well off? Do you have dependents? Would you be happier in non-big law lawyering or a BA job?

If most of the costs are living expenses, it's possible a job to cover those and sacrificing great grades may be worth it. You'd essentially be accepting big law has sailed.

baal hadad wrote:

hoos89 wrote:Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

K-MBA is dumb

I don't want to spend the MBA now. I've scored high enough on GMAT practice + have high enough UPGA to give me a shot at good B-schools down the road. I'm not saying its a good option, but I don't want to close the door now.

hoos89 wrote:Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

I got another screener for Tuesday, so I think you're right, but I need start evaluating all my options within reason sooner than later.

AReasonableMan wrote:If you drop out now your current debt (40kish) is manageable with a 50k job.

If you don't the risk and reward is probably greater.

It's still September - you can still get big law. Striking out and getting 3L is hard. You need a firm you could have gotten this year if you had the grades you'll have next year to have no offered/had someone turn them down AND overlook you not having an SA.

You haven't struck out yet. Keep mass mailing. If you strike out it's personal circumstances. Is your family kinda well off? Do you have dependents? Would you be happier in non-big law lawyering or a BA job?

If most of the costs are living expenses, it's possible a job to cover those and sacrificing great grades may be worth it. You'd essentially be accepting big law has sailed.

I think I'd be happier in a BA job related to my U-grad degree. I realized too late (read: 2nd semester) that biglaw corp is the only outcome for me that puts my career on the trajectory I want.

baal hadad wrote:

hoos89 wrote:Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

K-MBA is dumb

I'm not the original OP but I'm in the same predicament. No job. I'm a little under median at a T14. There aren't really other marketable degrees to give me another shot at OCI...

hoos89 wrote:Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

This is not true. Some did leave, but most ppl with the killer grades at GW stayed because top of class at GW pretty much gives you a chance at everywhere from Cravath down.

Anonymous User wrote:

hoos89 wrote:Given your grades, you might consider buckling down in class and trying to crack top 10% this year. 2L is way easier at a T20 because most of the top students left for T14s and those remaining who have jobs are likely to slack off. Consider applying for a 4 year joint degree program so you can do OCI again (I'd normally suggest JD/MBA, but my understanding is that GW doesn't have a great B school. Still worth looking into though), or gun for A3 clerkships (after next semester grades come out, assuming you do better). All is not lost, but it's not going to be easy.


Also, I got screeners and callbacks from mass mail way later than this last year. Follow up with everyone who have rejected you and mail any market you haven't hit yet.

This is not true. Some did leave, but most ppl with the killer grades at GW stayed because top of class at GW pretty much gives you a chance at everywhere from Cravath down.

OP here: I think the second poster is right. However, I think I could pull off improving into the top 10% this year. I could also plan to stay at my firm for another year than apply for D.Ct. clerkships with 1 year w/e & 3L grades.

No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

hoos89 wrote:No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

I was - personal emergency recked me in the fall. That's why I'm not bitter about this - I'm pretty sure I've done my best, it just hasn't worked out.

hoos89 wrote:No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

Is applying for D.Ct. clerkships in jan too late?

Anonymous User wrote:

hoos89 wrote:No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

Is applying for D.Ct. clerkships in jan too late?

January 2015 for 2016 clerkships? No absolutely not; that's honestly pretty early.


I was in a similar position to OP this time last year. Top 20% at a peer school, took a year off after undergrad but no w/e during that time so effectively a k-JD. I got tons of screeners last year but only 3 callbacks (one of which was in mid-October, so it's definitely too soon to give up hope). I had a couple of callbacks for boutique and mid-size firms later in the year, as well. However, I didn't end up getting a firm job, but I did luck into a Fortune 500 in-house gig in mid-May that paid pretty decently (plus I can work part-time during the year).

I gave up on big law around late October and focused on classes and I ended up doing very well (I'm now top 5%). I spent winter break calling up D.Ct chambers and asking when/if they were hiring clerks for 2015 and I sent out hundreds of paper applications in late January/early February, and ended up getting a decent number of interviews. Nothing panned out though, so I started looking into JD/MBA. Fortunately they were still accepting applications after 2nd semester, so I studied for the GMAT and crushed it, got a better scholarship than I have at the law school, and ended up committing around July 25th (after I heard back from my last clerkship interview). During that time, I was applying through OCI as a 2L because I would have missed all the deadlines had I waited until I knew which way I was going to go. I got tons of screeners again, and this time I got quite a few more callbacks. However, I didn't end up getting an offer until late August, and I got a 2nd (which I have accepted) at a V40 office in a secondary market. I struck out in NYC (only 1 callback from 16 screeners) and definitely underperformed top 5% at my school. Still, I'm in a much, much better position than I was at this time last year and I'm definitely glad I did it.

It sounds like OP might be more interested in MBA than I was, though. For me, it was just a way to leverage my GPA boost via a 2nd OCI.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

hoos89 wrote:No reason not to try for clerkships both years. Also it sounds like you were close to top 10% second semester (given your grade jump) so you're probably capable of pulling it off.

Is applying for D.Ct. clerkships in jan too late?

January 2015 for 2016 clerkships? No absolutely not; that's honestly pretty early.


I was in a similar position to OP this time last year. Top 20% at a peer school, took a year off after undergrad but no w/e during that time so effectively a k-JD. I got tons of screeners last year but only 3 callbacks (one of which was in mid-October, so it's definitely too soon to give up hope). I had a couple of callbacks for boutique and mid-size firms later in the year, as well. However, I didn't end up getting a firm job, but I did luck into a Fortune 500 in-house gig in mid-May that paid pretty decently (plus I can work part-time during the year).

I gave up on big law around late October and focused on classes and I ended up doing very well (I'm now top 5%). I spent winter break calling up D.Ct chambers and asking when/if they were hiring clerks for 2015 and I sent out hundreds of paper applications in late January/early February, and ended up getting a decent number of interviews. Nothing panned out though, so I started looking into JD/MBA. Fortunately they were still accepting applications after 2nd semester, so I studied for the GMAT and crushed it, got a better scholarship than I have at the law school, and ended up committing around July 25th (after I heard back from my last clerkship interview). During that time, I was applying through OCI as a 2L because I would have missed all the deadlines had I waited until I knew which way I was going to go. I got tons of screeners again, and this time I got quite a few more callbacks. However, I didn't end up getting an offer until late August, and I got a 2nd (which I have accepted) at a V40 office in a secondary market. I struck out in NYC (only 1 callback from 16 screeners) and definitely underperformed top 5% at my school. Still, I'm in a much, much better position than I was at this time last year and I'm definitely glad I did it.

It sounds like OP might be more interested in MBA than I was, though. For me, it was just a way to leverage my GPA boost via a 2nd OCI.

Ending up at the top 5% after your 2l year does not change your 1l top 20% position. They might be impressed at first by a high GPA but then will look at your 1l grades and compare it to the gpa of your peers.

OP

Is there any benefit at all of 2L grades? They just seem to get discounted immediately.

Anonymous User wrote:OP

Is there any benefit at all of 2L grades? They just seem to get discounted immediately.

My grades were definitely not discounted immediately. I had four V10 callbacks (which is way more than the zero I got last year), and I had way more NYC screeners. I underperformed my numbers, but more than zero of that is probably interviewing skills (I'm better then last year, but still not great). One of my V5 screeners was the same interviewer as last year. He remembered me and was very impressed by what I had done in the intervening year, and I got a callback.

Different firms treat it differently I'm sure. Some want law review and thought it was weird that I didn't have it with my grades. Some probably discounted my 2L grades. However, I know the firm I'm working for this summer did not do that, and that they really like JD/MBAs. I'm pretty pleased with my position right now given that I struck out last year.

Anymore thoughts from the sunday crowd?

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:OP

Is there any benefit at all of 2L grades? They just seem to get discounted immediately.

My grades were definitely not discounted immediately. I had four V10 callbacks (which is way more than the zero I got last year), and I had way more NYC screeners. I underperformed my numbers, but more than zero of that is probably interviewing skills (I'm better then last year, but still not great). One of my V5 screeners was the same interviewer as last year. He remembered me and was very impressed by what I had done in the intervening year, and I got a callback.

Different firms treat it differently I'm sure. Some want law review and thought it was weird that I didn't have it with my grades. Some probably discounted my 2L grades. However, I know the firm I'm working for this summer did not do that, and that they really like JD/MBAs. I'm pretty pleased with my position right now given that I struck out last year.

That's crazy to hear you went from really nothing to a V5 Callback - what business school did you attend? The b-schools attached to law schools ranked 15-20 are pretty different in quality...

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:OP

Is there any benefit at all of 2L grades? They just seem to get discounted immediately.

My grades were definitely not discounted immediately. I had four V10 callbacks (which is way more than the zero I got last year), and I had way more NYC screeners. I underperformed my numbers, but more than zero of that is probably interviewing skills (I'm better then last year, but still not great). One of my V5 screeners was the same interviewer as last year. He remembered me and was very impressed by what I had done in the intervening year, and I got a callback.

Different firms treat it differently I'm sure. Some want law review and thought it was weird that I didn't have it with my grades. Some probably discounted my 2L grades. However, I know the firm I'm working for this summer did not do that, and that they really like JD/MBAs. I'm pretty pleased with my position right now given that I struck out last year.

That's crazy to hear you went from really nothing to a V5 Callback - what business school did you attend? The b-schools attached to law schools ranked 15-20 are pretty different in quality...

Wait is your SA going to be for going into 4th year? My understanding is this is typically when JD/MBA's got hired for SA's.

You've admitted, for the most part, that you don't really care about being a lawyer. You have one specific outcome, and every other possibility doesn't seem to appeal to you.

For that reason primarily, and the possibility of striking out as a secondary reason, I say to drop out and pursue the career in business that you seem to want more than a career in law. Consider that even if you get the law job you want, there's no guarantee you'll like it, then you're in a position where you spent a lot of time and money to enter a field where there is literally no job you want.

smallfirmassociate wrote:You've admitted, for the most part, that you don't really care about being a lawyer. You have one specific outcome, and every other possibility doesn't seem to appeal to you.

For that reason primarily, and the possibility of striking out as a secondary reason, I say to drop out and pursue the career in business that you seem to want more than a career in law. Consider that even if you get the law job you want, there's no guarantee you'll like it, then you're in a position where you spent a lot of time and money to enter a field where there is literally no job you want.

You're maybe right. The hurdle is getting into a worthwhile job with my current resume - would be very difficult. Overcoming the internships I have + 1 year essential resume gap is a scary prospect. Not saying impossible, but big hurdle to leap for sure.

For the record, I wanted to be a lawyer when I applied & matriculated. Seeing "the belly of the beast" has changed my mind significantly.