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Anonymous User wrote:Interested in major practice areas of both firms...and liked both when I visited. Does either standout as the the better option? Duval doesn't have any records for past summer classes on NALP so not knowing the offer rate scares me. I think this is the first year they are doing a summer program.

Jeez, there's like zero info on Duval. I...hmm, I don't know anything about them so I might be wrong, but first-ever summer class with nothing else to go on scares the shit out of me.

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This isn't Duval's first year with a summer program. They used to actively do OCI at HLS, CLS and NYU when they had a two-track system (HYSCCN associates made $175k, T2 associates on a "staff track" making $60k) but stopped it a few years ago because they "weren't getting the people they wanted." I can guess what that means--when you're that small, you need an exact number of associates and therefore can't make many more offers than spaces available. At HYSCCN, getting the best candidates is a race, and if you have to wait, you're left with the bottom of the barrel. Pretty sure they cut out the staff thing this year so all incoming associates are gonna make $175k.

I really liked Duval but didn't get an offer. Their stated goal is to be the "Wachtell of Real Estate" so if you know for sure that that's what you want to do, it's a great place to go. If you're not sure, go somewhere with more options.

As for Seward, quoting myself from another thread:

Not clear on why Seward isn't more popular. So many people bitch about how hard it is to differentiate firms, but Seward actually is strong in a few specialty areas that only a handful of other firms even touch. They're also one of only a few firms who can actually back on the work-life balance line that's bullshit at most other places. I got told variations of "It would be weird for me to miss dinner with my family" and "I call my wife to tell her I'll be late if I have to work past 7:00" and I actually believed them. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I'd guess most S&K associates bill under 2,000 a year. Seward does well at the things law students claim to want (substantive opportunity, a life outside of work) and comparatively less well at the things law students actually want (prestige, prestige and prestige).

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Interested in major practice areas of both firms...and liked both when I visited. Does either standout as the the better option? Duval doesn't have any records for past summer classes on NALP so not knowing the offer rate scares me. I think this is the first year they are doing a summer program.

Jeez, there's like zero info on Duval. I...hmm, I don't know anything about them so I might be wrong, but first-ever summer class with nothing else to go on scares the shit out of me.

pretty much this

it's hard to tell what Duval is beyond a firm that spends a lot of money on Above The Law

@ Mono

just as SRZ isn't the Wachtell of hedge fund work, Duval isn't going to be the Wachtell of Real Estate

there are other established firms that they have to compete against in that space, and i have a feel that those firms are probably stronger than Duval

sideroxylon wrote: @ Mono

just as SRZ isn't the Wachtell of hedge fund work, Duval isn't going to be the Wachtell of Real Estate

there are other established firms that they have to compete against in that space, and i have a feel that those firms are probably stronger than Duval

Of course they aren't, at least not anytime soon. FF and GT arguably both have stronger practices. I'm just saying that WLRK is their template; aka they're going to try and get really good at one thing and they're not going to really expand into anything else.

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Anonymous User wrote:

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:

sideroxylon wrote: @ Mono

just as SRZ isn't the Wachtell of hedge fund work, Duval isn't going to be the Wachtell of Real Estate

there are other established firms that they have to compete against in that space, and i have a feel that those firms are probably stronger than Duval

Of course they aren't, at least not anytime soon. FF and GT arguably both have stronger practices. I'm just saying that WLRK is their template; aka they're going to try and get really good at one thing and they're not going to really expand into anything else.

Thanks so much. So it sounds like there isn't any more risk in your opinion picking Duval over seward?

do you have any other offers?

or is it just between Duval & Seward and Kissel?

do you want to do real estate or do you want to do hedge fund work/maritime work? &c.

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I mean it depends on how much Duval and Stachenfeld scares you. It's a 70 person firm. I think there's a risk inherent in going to a firm that small in an area where others want to eat your lunch. (Beyond GT and Fried Frank, you also have Kramer Levin who punches above their weight in that area, as well as small practices at the traditional big players in New York).

Again, I don't know anything about Duval beyond that they're small and they spend money on Above the Law. I don't know much about Seward other than that they're the real deal for maritime stuff and that they're probably a little slow in other areas.

I guess it also depends on what you think makes sense—does it make sense to do all areas related to real estate? Probably. Do you think that a 70 person firm is going to handle the tax problems as well as a massive New York firm? (I'd say no.)

Maybe someone who is a practicing attorney can tell you more about either firm, but that isn't Mono and it isn't me.

Also, to argue with Mono—there's a reason you can't really call Duval the Wachtell of Real Estate. I really doubt that Real Estate is going to involve the profit margins and the complexity inherent in the stuff that made Wachtell Wachtell. They say they're avoiding chasing PPP. I'd say they know that they can't chase PPP.

OP, I don't know what the answer is. Talk to Duval attorneys. Try to get an idea of their growth/turnover rate. Maybe figure out what happens when people leave. I have a feeling that very few people will be able to speak to what working in a hyper-specialized 70 person firm is like.

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Anonymous User wrote:

sideroxylon wrote:I mean it depends on how much Duval and Stachenfeld scares you. It's a 70 person firm. I think there's a risk inherent in going to a firm that small in an area where others want to eat your lunch. (Beyond GT and Fried Frank, you also have Kramer Levin who punches above their weight in that area, as well as small practices at the traditional big players in New York).

Again, I don't know anything about Duval beyond that they're small and they spend money on Above the Law. I don't know much about Seward other than that they're the real deal for maritime stuff and that they're probably a little slow in other areas.

I guess it also depends on what you think makes sense—does it make sense to do all areas related to real estate? Probably. Do you think that a 70 person firm is going to handle the tax problems as well as a massive New York firm? (I'd say no.)

Maybe someone who is a practicing attorney can tell you more about either firm, but that isn't Mono and it isn't me.

Also, to argue with Mono—there's a reason you can't really call Duval the Wachtell of Real Estate. I really doubt that Real Estate is going to involve the profit margins and the complexity inherent in the stuff that made Wachtell Wachtell. They say they're avoiding chasing PPP. I'd say they know that they can't chase PPP.

OP, I don't know what the answer is. Talk to Duval attorneys. Try to get an idea of their growth/turnover rate. Maybe figure out what happens when people leave. I have a feeling that very few people will be able to speak to what working in a hyper-specialized 70 person firm is like.

Thank you very much. So it seems you feel just on gut that seward is safer.

yeah I do, but I don't know if it really is meaningfully safer

I feel like Duval is higher risk/higher reward if it's a place where people stay and still make partner. That seems plausible at a 70 person firm, but I have no clue. That's why I'd investigate more.

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Duvall seemed really weird and almost out of their depth when I went through EIW a few years ago. They instituted the two track thing and didn't seem to have a good idea of what they meant to do with the new system. If you go there you'll be working with, what, a bunch of fifth year associates from St Johns making $100k less than you? Just seems like a bizarre environment, likely toxic, and you'll be a guinea pig. Don't think I'd do it.

Its nice they offer 15k more but you need to take a few considerations to make an educated guess:

1) offer rate
2) exit options
3) salary
4) firm culture
5) long-term stability

I would say 1, 2, and 5 are the most important aspects.

I would take Seward and try to get as much work as you can in the investment management group. Take that experience & try to 3LOLCI yourself into a more established/wide ranged firm if you're concerned about exit ops.

I'm at MVP and I know someone who was at Duval this past summer and got offered.

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Bump.

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Anonymous User wrote:op here. any more thoughts? Appreciate advice I have received.

It doesn't seem like there is a lot of information on Duval out there, and that may be concerning. I would probably lean Seward. It's a bigger firm and more established and most likely has more exit options. With Duval you are locking yourself in and specializing straight away. This is something to think about, especially considering problems in real estate ITE.

Real estate is booming right now and it's a good time to get into the industry. On the other hand, Seward has been around a while and looks like the safer bet. If you are willing to settle on practicing real estate law then go Duval, if you want a broader choice of practice areas then go Seward.

You really need to weigh whats important to you: Money, job security, offer rate, practice area. This really shouldn't be too tough of a decision as the options are so different.

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Anonymous User wrote:Op here. Well of your variables which fall under each firm. Offer rate is an unknown for me at this time, but I am trying to secure this info. And job security could be argued for both? No?

Seward seems to do 100% offers. Duval may, but it is unclear. Duval offers more money, and their literature on ATL seems to indicate a realistic shot at making partner, but that is paid advertising so who knows. If I were you, it would come down to practice area. Are you ready to commit to real estate? If so, take the money and do Duval. If not, keep your options open by doing Seward.