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Really like Cleary but leaning towards lit (but no legal experience beyond 1L summer). Cleary doesn't seem to have the strongest lit practice...

Anonymous User wrote:Really like Cleary but leaning towards lit (but no legal experience beyond 1L summer). Cleary doesn't seem to have the strongest lit practice...

Then Boeis. Expect to bill 2300+ plus

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Really like Cleary but leaning towards lit (but no legal experience beyond 1L summer). Cleary doesn't seem to have the strongest lit practice...

Then Boeis. Expect to bill 2300+ plus

totally worth it when you realize some of the money you earn is going towards David Boies' pretty excellent plastic surgery

seizmaar wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Really like Cleary but leaning towards lit (but no legal experience beyond 1L summer). Cleary doesn't seem to have the strongest lit practice...

Then Boeis. Expect to bill 2300+ plus

totally worth it when you realize some of the money you earn is going towards David Boies' pretty excellent plastic surgery

BUT HE ONLY BILLS OUT AT ONE DOLLAR!

THINK OF THE SAVINGS TO THE CLIENTS!

Is the 2300+ expectation the same in all offices?

Anonymous User wrote:Is the 2300+ expectation the same in all offices?

Lol. It's the reality for everyone. 2300 is probably on the low side from what I've heard.

Where are people getting the info that Cleary isn't strong in litigation? Sure, it's well-know for corporate. But it's ranked Band 1 in practically every branch of litigation on Chambers.

stuckinthemiddle wrote:Where are people getting the info that Cleary isn't strong in litigation? Sure, it's well-know for corporate. But it's ranked Band 1 in practically every branch of litigation on Chambers.

It's a weird area and Chambers seems odd here. Boies is band two for general commercial lit, but I think most would agree it is much stronger than Cleary. Others may disagree, though.

First Offense wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is the 2300+ expectation the same in all offices?

Lol. It's the reality for everyone. 2300 is probably on the low side from what I've heard.

How many hours worked does it take to bill 2300?

At least 300 more than the hours required to work 2000

First Offense wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is the 2300+ expectation the same in all offices?

Lol. It's the reality for everyone. 2300 is probably on the low side from what I've heard.

Yes, 2300 as a minimum. It's probably more like 2400-2700. At least you are compensated for each "extra hour" in the form of a bonus.

How many hours worked does it take to bill 2300?

For a rule of thumb, assume ~20% overage. Thus, 2700+ hours actually 'working'.

Big Dog wrote:

How many hours worked does it take to bill 2300?

For a rule of thumb, assume ~20% overage. Thus, 2700+ hours actually 'working'.

Is that really that bad? Assuming 2 weeks of vacation, that comes out to 54 hours/week of work.

Anonymous User wrote:

Big Dog wrote:

How many hours worked does it take to bill 2300?

For a rule of thumb, assume ~20% overage. Thus, 2700+ hours actually 'working'.

Is that really that bad? Assuming 2 weeks of vacation, that comes out to 54 hours/week of work.

Holidays alone are another 2 weeks (July 4th, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, etc.).

I picked Boies over DPW & PW a few days ago (didn't ever like Cleary, but our choices are similar). I don't have any experience working at either place, so I can only really explain why I made my decision, which is probably totally unhelpful. It came down to compensation and knowing that I'll be working hard no matter where I am in New York. A DPW associate tried to describe the difference in QoL between billing 2600 at Boies or 2300 at DPW (what he billed as a lit associate). It does seem like a pretty significant difference, but I thought it was worth the extra money.

I can't back this up with any experience, but I got the impression Boies teams are genuinely smaller than teams for similar matters at other firms and that Boies associates are expected to do more faster than at other firms. That could (a) be a negative for some people or (b) be bullshit marketing, but I doubt that. I'm happy with my choice. Sorry I can't really be more helpful.

Anonymous User wrote:I picked Boies over DPW & PW a few days ago (didn't ever like Cleary, but our choices are similar). I don't have any experience working at either place, so I can only really explain why I made my decision, which is probably totally unhelpful. It came down to compensation and knowing that I'll be working hard no matter where I am in New York. A DPW associate tried to describe the difference in QoL between billing 2600 at Boies or 2300 at DPW (what he billed as a lit associate). It does seem like a pretty significant difference, but I thought it was worth the extra money.

I can't back this up with any experience, but I got the impression Boies teams are genuinely smaller than teams for similar matters at other firms and that Boies associates are expected to do more faster than at other firms. That could (a) be a negative for some people or (b) be bullshit marketing, but I doubt that. I'm happy with my choice. Sorry I can't really be more helpful.

I am a Boies associate, and it is not bullshit. Most cases are staffed with 1 partner and 1-2 associates, and if you earn the partners' trust you will be running your own cases VERY early on. I think this is a combination of the fact that we have a greater number of smaller, quirky cases, and that for larger cases we are brought in with another Biglaw firm that does most of the grunt work.

Do we work more hours than other associates? Probably, on average, though I think law students tend to exaggerate it. But there is an enormous difference in the quality of hours when you have flexibility in your schedule (which you acquire because you're managing the case), including working from home when you want to, and when you are the person responsible for the product that's going out the door to the client or the court.

I worked about 2600 hours last year, but they were great, interesting hours. I can't imagine working that much doing some of the mind-numbing tasks that my friends at other firms have to do. And I actually took on extra work towards the end of the summer to boost my hours to get a better bonus (since the bonus cycle ends Sept. 30). My bonus was five times what it would be if I worked anywhere else except Wachtell, and let me tell you, a six-figure bonus makes a big difference when you're paying off your loans.

Can't imagine why you would work anywhere else.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I picked Boies over DPW & PW a few days ago (didn't ever like Cleary, but our choices are similar). I don't have any experience working at either place, so I can only really explain why I made my decision, which is probably totally unhelpful. It came down to compensation and knowing that I'll be working hard no matter where I am in New York. A DPW associate tried to describe the difference in QoL between billing 2600 at Boies or 2300 at DPW (what he billed as a lit associate). It does seem like a pretty significant difference, but I thought it was worth the extra money.

I can't back this up with any experience, but I got the impression Boies teams are genuinely smaller than teams for similar matters at other firms and that Boies associates are expected to do more faster than at other firms. That could (a) be a negative for some people or (b) be bullshit marketing, but I doubt that. I'm happy with my choice. Sorry I can't really be more helpful.

I am a Boies associate, and it is not bullshit. Most cases are staffed with 1 partner and 1-2 associates, and if you earn the partners' trust you will be running your own cases VERY early on. I think this is a combination of the fact that we have a greater number of smaller, quirky cases, and that for larger cases we are brought in with another Biglaw firm that does most of the grunt work.

Do we work more hours than other associates? Probably, on average, though I think law students tend to exaggerate it. But there is an enormous difference in the quality of hours when you have flexibility in your schedule (which you acquire because you're managing the case), including working from home when you want to, and when you are the person responsible for the product that's going out the door to the client or the court.

I worked about 2600 hours last year, but they were great, interesting hours. I can't imagine working that much doing some of the mind-numbing tasks that my friends at other firms have to do. And I actually took on extra work towards the end of the summer to boost my hours to get a better bonus (since the bonus cycle ends Sept. 30). My bonus was five times what it would be if I worked anywhere else except Wachtell, and let me tell you, a six-figure bonus makes a big difference when you're paying off your loans.

Can't imagine why you would work anywhere else.

This sounds awful.

Anonymous User wrote:I picked Boies over DPW & PW a few days ago (didn't ever like Cleary, but our choices are similar). I don't have any experience working at either place, so I can only really explain why I made my decision, which is probably totally unhelpful. It came down to compensation and knowing that I'll be working hard no matter where I am in New York. A DPW associate tried to describe the difference in QoL between billing 2600 at Boies or 2300 at DPW (what he billed as a lit associate). It does seem like a pretty significant difference, but I thought it was worth the extra money.

I can't back this up with any experience, but I got the impression Boies teams are genuinely smaller than teams for similar matters at other firms and that Boies associates are expected to do more faster than at other firms. That could (a) be a negative for some people or (b) be bullshit marketing, but I doubt that. I'm happy with my choice. Sorry I can't really be more helpful.

Why didn't you like Cleary? I've only ever heard great things about them.

First Offense wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I picked Boies over DPW & PW a few days ago (didn't ever like Cleary, but our choices are similar). I don't have any experience working at either place, so I can only really explain why I made my decision, which is probably totally unhelpful. It came down to compensation and knowing that I'll be working hard no matter where I am in New York. A DPW associate tried to describe the difference in QoL between billing 2600 at Boies or 2300 at DPW (what he billed as a lit associate). It does seem like a pretty significant difference, but I thought it was worth the extra money.

I can't back this up with any experience, but I got the impression Boies teams are genuinely smaller than teams for similar matters at other firms and that Boies associates are expected to do more faster than at other firms. That could (a) be a negative for some people or (b) be bullshit marketing, but I doubt that. I'm happy with my choice. Sorry I can't really be more helpful.

I am a Boies associate, and it is not bullshit. Most cases are staffed with 1 partner and 1-2 associates, and if you earn the partners' trust you will be running your own cases VERY early on. I think this is a combination of the fact that we have a greater number of smaller, quirky cases, and that for larger cases we are brought in with another Biglaw firm that does most of the grunt work.

Do we work more hours than other associates? Probably, on average, though I think law students tend to exaggerate it. But there is an enormous difference in the quality of hours when you have flexibility in your schedule (which you acquire because you're managing the case), including working from home when you want to, and when you are the person responsible for the product that's going out the door to the client or the court.

I worked about 2600 hours last year, but they were great, interesting hours. I can't imagine working that much doing some of the mind-numbing tasks that my friends at other firms have to do. And I actually took on extra work towards the end of the summer to boost my hours to get a better bonus (since the bonus cycle ends Sept. 30). My bonus was five times what it would be if I worked anywhere else except Wachtell, and let me tell you, a six-figure bonus makes a big difference when you're paying off your loans.

Can't imagine why you would work anywhere else.

This sounds awful.

Only if you don't actually want to be a lawyer--in which case, yes, definitely not the place to be.

First Offense wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I picked Boies over DPW & PW a few days ago (didn't ever like Cleary, but our choices are similar). I don't have any experience working at either place, so I can only really explain why I made my decision, which is probably totally unhelpful. It came down to compensation and knowing that I'll be working hard no matter where I am in New York. A DPW associate tried to describe the difference in QoL between billing 2600 at Boies or 2300 at DPW (what he billed as a lit associate). It does seem like a pretty significant difference, but I thought it was worth the extra money.

I can't back this up with any experience, but I got the impression Boies teams are genuinely smaller than teams for similar matters at other firms and that Boies associates are expected to do more faster than at other firms. That could (a) be a negative for some people or (b) be bullshit marketing, but I doubt that. I'm happy with my choice. Sorry I can't really be more helpful.

I am a Boies associate, and it is not bullshit. Most cases are staffed with 1 partner and 1-2 associates, and if you earn the partners' trust you will be running your own cases VERY early on. I think this is a combination of the fact that we have a greater number of smaller, quirky cases, and that for larger cases we are brought in with another Biglaw firm that does most of the grunt work.

Do we work more hours than other associates? Probably, on average, though I think law students tend to exaggerate it. But there is an enormous difference in the quality of hours when you have flexibility in your schedule (which you acquire because you're managing the case), including working from home when you want to, and when you are the person responsible for the product that's going out the door to the client or the court.

I worked about 2600 hours last year, but they were great, interesting hours. I can't imagine working that much doing some of the mind-numbing tasks that my friends at other firms have to do. And I actually took on extra work towards the end of the summer to boost my hours to get a better bonus (since the bonus cycle ends Sept. 30). My bonus was five times what it would be if I worked anywhere else except Wachtell, and let me tell you, a six-figure bonus makes a big difference when you're paying off your loans.

Can't imagine why you would work anywhere else.

This sounds awful.

I was recently approached by a Boies for a callback, but it didn't work out. As for me, I couldn't imagine a better experience than being given that level of responsibility while working on important pieces of litigation. I guess the saying, "Different strokes for different folks" applies here; while it sounded awful to you, that quote - which confirmed everything I thought Boies would be - has been on my mind since I read it -- it just made the lack of a callback and chance to secure an offer hurt all the more.

I'm not at either of these firms, but I know people at both, and we appear as co-counsel or opposing counsel with them on occasion. I'm going to bill more than 2,600 hours this year, and a bigger bonus would make me feel a LOT better about it. Also, much of Cleary's lit work seems to be enforcement matters, which some people are OK with, but it's not "litigation" in the traditional sense.

You have to think about what Boies will be after Boies.

Enforcement work is a different and some people find it much more interesting than traditional litigation.

The extra money at Boies would be nice, but there is some risk in going there. They regularly no-offer summer associates. Also, as has been mentioned, that firm is going to lose a lot of business when Boies retires. Rarely do firms depend on a single partner for so much of their business.

I summered at Cleary and did litigation. I ended up choosing a different firm during 3L year but mainly because of location.

Youre not going to get substantive litigation experience at Cleary. I knew 6th years who had never taken a depo. Litigation in biglaw sucks generally, but the white shoe NY firms are particularly bad as far as getting substantive work.

Having said that, I would go Cleary here. The hours difference is definitely a big deal, and I also get the impression that Boies would be a bit more "aggressive" work environment.

I have a few friends that chose Davis Polk or Cravath (more than one to each) over Boies Schiller for litigation. While admittedly most people say DPW/CSM are stronger than Cleary for lit, either way it's not unheard of. They cited reasons including but not limited to, fit/personality, stability/longevity (I don't buy this one, but I've heard it), distaste for entrepreneurial culture & expectation of bringing in clients to get ahead, and of course hours/lifestyle.

I would probably have gone to Boies Schiller in your shoes if I was 100% lit over these white shoe firms and I wanted to be in New York. (I didn't get an offer at Boies so fortunately(?) never had to make that choice for NY anyway).