S&C experiences? Forum
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S&C experiences?
Does anyone have any stories, either first- or second-hand, about working at Sullivan & Cromwell? In particular: the buzz on this forum seems to be that everyone is socially retarded because they don't "screen for personality." My experience has been that everyone is personable and not at all weird (because recruiting carefully picks who offerees interact with?).
Also: I'm a big boy and realize biglaw hours are going to be shit - does s&c tend to be on par with NYC biglaw in this regard?
Looking at GP / corp if if that matters
Also: I'm a big boy and realize biglaw hours are going to be shit - does s&c tend to be on par with NYC biglaw in this regard?
Looking at GP / corp if if that matters
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Re: S&C experiences?
If you're anonymous, no one can PM you.
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Re: S&C experiences?
I'm OP - I guess anon was overkill since I (long time lurker) made an account solely to post this, so unlikely to be identifiable .
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Re: S&C experiences?
I was a summer associate at S&C this past summer and will be going back after graduation. The emphasis on grades rather than "fit" didn't seem to fill the firm with social retards, but it did mean that the office lacked a uniform culture like some other firms (e.g., Latham's fratty feel).
Yes, the hours are shitty. The problem with GP isn't necessarily the number of hours, it's the unpredictability of them. Getting a pile of work dropped on your desk Friday evening and suddenly having your weekend trashed didn't seem uncommon for the GP associates and happened to us summer associates a number of times. Lit, on the other hand, seemed much more predictable.
Yes, the hours are shitty. The problem with GP isn't necessarily the number of hours, it's the unpredictability of them. Getting a pile of work dropped on your desk Friday evening and suddenly having your weekend trashed didn't seem uncommon for the GP associates and happened to us summer associates a number of times. Lit, on the other hand, seemed much more predictable.
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Re: S&C experiences?
Congratulations!
Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.
During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.
You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).
Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.
You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.
You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)
A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.
About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.
Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.
Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.
Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.
And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.
Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.
During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.
You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).
Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.
You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.
You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)
A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.
About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.
Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.
Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.
Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.
And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.
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Re: S&C experiences?
Not sure how my OP came across as "this is the best thing that could have ever happened to me" but it's exactly the concerns outlined in that, uh, essay that give me pause and led to me posting this thread .
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Re: S&C experiences?
Don't worry about that, it's copypasta from a while back. I summered at S&C and personalities were quite varied and generally not a cause for concern.
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Re: S&C experiences?
Also a S&C summer from this year.
I think the "we don't screen for personality" meme is a huge overstatement -- or at least at my CCN school where they hire down to median. The upside is that there is not single "type" of person in the summer class, and with 120+ people just in NYC, it means that you get a lot of diversity (personality wise, I mean -- obviously it's mostly white dudes).
Sure there were a few weird people, fratty people, gunners... the whole mix -- but on the whole I thought people at the firm were entirely typical of what you'd expect at any top NYC biglaw firm. I think the thing that most characterizes S&C partners and seniors is that the love the work (as crazy as that sounds) -- but there are lots of different types of people who could love the work. And again, I imagine that's true at Cravath/DPW/etc.
I think the "we don't screen for personality" meme is a huge overstatement -- or at least at my CCN school where they hire down to median. The upside is that there is not single "type" of person in the summer class, and with 120+ people just in NYC, it means that you get a lot of diversity (personality wise, I mean -- obviously it's mostly white dudes).
Sure there were a few weird people, fratty people, gunners... the whole mix -- but on the whole I thought people at the firm were entirely typical of what you'd expect at any top NYC biglaw firm. I think the thing that most characterizes S&C partners and seniors is that the love the work (as crazy as that sounds) -- but there are lots of different types of people who could love the work. And again, I imagine that's true at Cravath/DPW/etc.
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Re: S&C experiences?
Yeah the poster above just copied and pasted that -- not his/her own work. Not sure why they didn't quote it.123fakest wrote:Not sure how my OP came across as "this is the best thing that could have ever happened to me" but it's exactly the concerns outlined in that, uh, essay that give me pause and led to me posting this thread .
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Re: S&C experiences?
That shit was first posted, gosh, in 2006 or 2007 back on autoadmit. When I was recruiting - and I'm no spring chicken - it was already a meme. Whoever concocted it really got his revenge for his bad review, I'll give him credit for that.SLS_AMG wrote:Yeah the poster above just copied and pasted that -- not his/her own work. Not sure why they didn't quote it.123fakest wrote:Not sure how my OP came across as "this is the best thing that could have ever happened to me" but it's exactly the concerns outlined in that, uh, essay that give me pause and led to me posting this thread .
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Re: S&C experiences?
That essay was my experience interviewing with S&C in a nutshell.
Avoid if you have offers at comparable firms (you likely do)
Avoid if you have offers at comparable firms (you likely do)
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Re: S&C experiences?
Care to elaborate?Anonymous User wrote:That essay was my experience interviewing with S&C in a nutshell.
Avoid if you have offers at comparable firms (you likely do)
- KD35
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Re: S&C experiences?
Know a few friends there, and they are far from socially awkward.
Last edited by KD35 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- banjo
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Re: S&C experiences?
S&C made nearly 100% of their offers to Stone folks at CLS last year. Just based on anecdotal data, I would put their GPA cutoff around 3.6 or maybe a little lower. Not saying they didn't hire down to median at one of CCN, but I bet it's pretty rare.Anonymous User wrote:I think the "we don't screen for personality" meme is a huge overstatement -- or at least at my CCN school where they hire down to median.
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Re: S&C experiences?
People keep mentioning CLS to refute this, but at UChi there are at least six people around (or below) median at S&C in the last two years.banjo wrote:S&C made nearly 100% of their offers to Stone folks at CLS last year. Just based on anecdotal data, I would put their GPA cutoff around 3.6 or maybe a little lower. Not saying they didn't hire down to median at one of CCN, but I bet it's pretty rare.Anonymous User wrote:I think the "we don't screen for personality" meme is a huge overstatement -- or at least at my CCN school where they hire down to median.
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Re: S&C experiences?
I get why you shouldn't go to a firm just based on prestige. But prestige usually is somewhat correlated with exit opportunities or access to high-level clients and deals.
I'm curious as to whether the exit options or the level of work you'd be doing at S&C is that much better than other firms, vs. the amount of hours you'll have to work at S&C.
Is S&C really that much more of a sweatshop than a Willkie Farr, Shearman or Gibson Dunn NY?
I'm curious as to whether the exit options or the level of work you'd be doing at S&C is that much better than other firms, vs. the amount of hours you'll have to work at S&C.
Is S&C really that much more of a sweatshop than a Willkie Farr, Shearman or Gibson Dunn NY?
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Re: S&C experiences?
S&C's hours aren't higher than the industry broadly, adjusting for practice area (i.e., S&C M&A involves a lot of hours, but so too does M&A at every other top M&A practice in NYC . . .)deng wrote:I get why you shouldn't go to a firm just based on prestige. But prestige usually is somewhat correlated with exit opportunities or access to high-level clients and deals.
I'm curious as to whether the exit options or the level of work you'd be doing at S&C is that much better than other firms, vs. the amount of hours you'll have to work at S&C.
Is S&C really that much more of a sweatshop than a Willkie Farr, Shearman or Gibson Dunn NY?
IMO, the work you do at S&C as a transactional associate, particular junior to early-mid-level, is significantly better than at anywhere but Cravath (setting aside Wachtell as sui generis). Great, great training.
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Re: S&C experiences?
I met with a partner at my 1L SA firm last week who summered and started his career with S&C. His quote "it was the best summer of my life -- I have never had more fun". This guy is incredibly fun and down to earth. He said he eventually left because partnership prospects were very slim, but overall he did love the firm.
- sideroxylon
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Re: S&C experiences?
hard to know unless you're talking to people at all three, but that's the reputationdeng wrote:Is S&C really that much more of a sweatshop than a Willkie Farr, Shearman or Gibson Dunn NY?
alert the press, someone enjoyed being a summer associateAnonymous User wrote:I met with a partner at my 1L SA firm last week who summered and started his career with S&C. His quote "it was the best summer of my life -- I have never had more fun". This guy is incredibly fun and down to earth. He said he eventually left because partnership prospects were very slim, but overall he did love the firm.
- Old Gregg
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Re: S&C experiences?
Don't really buy this for a second. The quality of work you get as a junior comes down to abilities, staffing and deal size. These factors don't really correspond with prestige, but I get the desire to justify one's decision to work at S&C.IMO, the work you do at S&C as a transactional associate, particular junior to early-mid-level, is significantly better than at anywhere but Cravath (setting aside Wachtell as sui generis). Great, great training.
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Re: S&C experiences?
zweitbester wrote:Don't really buy this for a second. The quality of work you get as a junior comes down to abilities, staffing and deal size. These factors don't really correspond with prestige, but I get the desire to justify one's decision to work at S&C.IMO, the work you do at S&C as a transactional associate, particular junior to early-mid-level, is significantly better than at anywhere but Cravath (setting aside Wachtell as sui generis). Great, great training.
Wait a second here. Based on my experience working here as a transactional associate, there is a substantive difference between S&C/Cravath and the other firms, and that's the generalist focus. At S&C, they will purposefully periodically assign you stuff you've never done before to keep you from focusing too much in a single area. They purposefully rotate juniors in and out of long-term projects that involve a lot of drudgery in order to spread the "wealth" fairly.
Perhaps you want to specialize early and often, but if you want to generalize (and I did) and you think it helps, long term, in giving you more valuable skills that you can monetize at S&C or elsewhere (and I do), then that's a difference. I think Cravath provides the same benefit to its associates in its Cravathy way. I don't think other firms do it.
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- Old Gregg
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Re: S&C experiences?
We're talking past each other. OP made it sound like first years at S&C are drafting merger agreements. Not happening.Wait a second here. Based on my experience working here as a transactional associate, there is a substantive difference between S&C/Cravath and the other firms, and that's the generalist focus. At S&C, they will purposefully periodically assign you stuff you've never done before to keep you from focusing too much in a single area. They purposefully rotate juniors in and out of long-term projects that involve a lot of drudgery in order to spread the "wealth" fairly.
Perhaps you want to specialize early and often, but if you want to generalize (and I did) and you think it helps, long term, in giving you more valuable skills that you can monetize at S&C or elsewhere (and I do), then that's a difference. I think Cravath provides the same benefit to its associates in its Cravathy way. I don't think other firms do it.
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Re: S&C experiences?
No doubt (though to be fair, they are doing the first draft of the issues list when a new draft comes in, which is not bad first year work at all).zweitbester wrote:We're talking past each other. OP made it sound like first years at S&C are drafting merger agreements. Not happening.Wait a second here. Based on my experience working here as a transactional associate, there is a substantive difference between S&C/Cravath and the other firms, and that's the generalist focus. At S&C, they will purposefully periodically assign you stuff you've never done before to keep you from focusing too much in a single area. They purposefully rotate juniors in and out of long-term projects that involve a lot of drudgery in order to spread the "wealth" fairly.
Perhaps you want to specialize early and often, but if you want to generalize (and I did) and you think it helps, long term, in giving you more valuable skills that you can monetize at S&C or elsewhere (and I do), then that's a difference. I think Cravath provides the same benefit to its associates in its Cravathy way. I don't think other firms do it.
If you go anywhere and expect to be "running deals" (whatever that means) from day one you're going to be sorely disappointed. But I do think the quality of transactional training/work is a bit higher at S&C and Cravath relative to DPW or STB. I don't know enough about transactional life at Cleary to compare to them.
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Re: S&C experiences?
+1. Anon is likely from UChicago. Every non-Watchtell V10 offered down to median during 2013 OCI.Anonymous User wrote:People keep mentioning CLS to refute this, but at UChi there are at least six people around (or below) median at S&C in the last two years.banjo wrote:S&C made nearly 100% of their offers to Stone folks at CLS last year. Just based on anecdotal data, I would put their GPA cutoff around 3.6 or maybe a little lower. Not saying they didn't hire down to median at one of CCN, but I bet it's pretty rare.Anonymous User wrote:I think the "we don't screen for personality" meme is a huge overstatement -- or at least at my CCN school where they hire down to median.
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Re: S&C experiences?
S&C does not screen for personality. It is known.
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