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I am currently considering an offer from Schulte, as I'm interested in Hedge Fund work, but the low level of satisfaction among the mid-level associates really worries me. I find this odd considering they are rated as having a fun summer program. Before anyone jumps on that last statement, I realize that being a summer associate is nothing like being an associate, but I figured that the type of firm that would care/be able to make a fun summer program,\ would at least be capable of being an average place to work. I also realize I'm asking for anecdotal stories to refute objective data, but any thoughts?

Edit: basing dissatisfaction off Am Law list: --LinkRemoved--

Well, what are your other options?

BUT IF YOU'RE UNSATISFIED AS A MID-LEVEL WHY DON'T YOU JUST LATERAL TO GOLDMAN SACHS? SRZ -- the sweetheart of TLS.

cookiejar1 wrote:BUT IF YOU'RE UNSATISFIED AS A MID-LEVEL WHY DON'T YOU JUST LATERAL TO GOLDMAN SACHS? SRZ -- the sweetheart of TLS.

oh look another troll from northwestern. must be lonely in the lower t14

Anonymous User wrote:

cookiejar1 wrote:BUT IF YOU'RE UNSATISFIED AS A MID-LEVEL WHY DON'T YOU JUST LATERAL TO GOLDMAN SACHS? SRZ -- the sweetheart of TLS.

oh look another troll from northwestern. must be lonely in the lower t14

Might be a better burn if NU's job placement weren't superior to higher ranked schools like Michigan.

I'm not the OP but I'm in the same boat and am looking at Schulte or Kirkland NY. Not sure whether I want to do PE/MA or hedge fund work, so I'm having a tough time deciding, but that ATL article surprised me as well.

ymmv wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

cookiejar1 wrote:BUT IF YOU'RE UNSATISFIED AS A MID-LEVEL WHY DON'T YOU JUST LATERAL TO GOLDMAN SACHS? SRZ -- the sweetheart of TLS.

oh look another troll from northwestern. must be lonely in the lower t14

Might be a better burn if NU's job placement weren't superior to higher ranked schools like Michigan.

i go to columbia so idc really. also i am not OP fyi

Anonymous User wrote:Well, what are your other options?

OP: Seward & Kissel, Dechert, & Kaye Scholer

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Well, what are your other options?

OP: Seward & Kissel, Dechert, & Kaye Scholer

I'd take Dechert. Schulte sounds depressing

Slambonie3 wrote:

cookiejar1 wrote:BUT IF YOU'RE UNSATISFIED AS A MID-LEVEL WHY DON'T YOU JUST LATERAL TO GOLDMAN SACHS? SRZ -- the sweetheart of TLS.

oh look another troll from northwestern. must be lonely in the lower t14

Oh, look, it's your second alt. Stop doing this.

The associate satisfaction ranking does not surprise me at all. I considered an offer a few years ago and was concerned after meeting with several partners who seemed pretty intense. I spoke to a few associates and the best thing anyone could say was that if you keep your door closed and don't interact much, it's not terrible. I never looked into the firms that are OP's other options but I would choose most market firms over Schulte.

Its a bad sign that you're asking people from an anonymous message board for help on a critically important decision like this. Doesn't really seem like the most reliable source does it? But here's a real response to your question.

First, its not surprising that a firm could have a fun summer program and be a lousy place for associates. Summer means going out to lots of fancy lunches, parties at partners houses and a few big events. A fun summer program means the firm has a good event planner. Also, nobody knows how good each summer associate is going to be.

By the time you're a mid-level associate you are expected to be able to do actual legal work and to earn your keep. That can easily mean long hours at really boring work like making sure there are no mistakes in interminable complex documents or dealing with all kinds esoteric details of civil procedure.

Moreover, the partners will have identified the associates they want to mentor and those they want to use for grunt work and then cast aside. If you're in the latter group, your job will not be much fun. If you're in the former group it may not be much fun either since having a mentor doesn't just mean you have someone who wants to help you. Having a mentor is a two way street, you've got to be able to get things done for your mentor and that may mean being available 24/7 and fixing messes made by less competent people that could hurt your mentor's clients. If you're unable or unwilling to do this, your mentor can find someone else who is.

So what can you do? Before relying on the survey you cite, you should get more information about it. How many associates did they survey at Schulte, did they see if there were differences across practice groups, do they provide any detail on what associates did not like (e.g. was it the hours, abusive partners, lack of opportunity to develop skills and clients, some of these may be more important to you than others). The ABA should be able to give you info on their survey.

More importantly you want to find out from the associates at the firm what their lives are really like. Given the importance of the decision, you can see Schulte will set up a call with an associate or two (maybe a junior and a mid-level) so you can ask open-ended questions about what they do on a typical day, how they are evaluated, what sort of opportunities they have (they want you know so they'll likely to be willing to do this). Come up with the questions before the calls, keep them open ended so it doesn't seem like you have unrealistic expectations, be organized and don't take to much their time. Second, think about the people you met during your interviews. Often you can tell whether someone is a jerk pretty quickly. Finally, think about where you want to end up and see if it matches were Schulte associates go. If you just want to be an associate for a few years and then go into a hedge fund, and lots of Schulte associates leave and go to HFs and PE, it could be a good place.

Last suggestion, if you're really concerned see if you can split your summer. That way if you don't like Schulte you can go somewhere else.

Anyway those are just my thoughts. But I'm sure, on an anonymous message board, you can find someone claiming to be a Schulte mid-level associate or partner who is willing to tell you what ever you want to know.

i thought the TLS CW was that those surveys were worthless

One more suggestion, even better than asking Schulte to find associates you can call, see if the CSO at your school or anyone in your network can put you in touch with an associate at Schulte. Then you won't get someone Schulte picked to tell you everything is great. By your network, I mean things like linkedin. Also, if you are on good terms with any young professors at your school they may know, or be able to put in touch with someone at Schulte.

You also need to find out which of the firm's you are considering does the type of work you want to do. If you want to do HF work, how many partners at the other firms you are considering focus on that? Firms discuss their focus areas on their websites, along with their recent accomplishments, so you should be able to get a sense of which firms are aligned with your interests.

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:Its a bad sign that you're asking people from an anonymous message board for help on a critically important decision like this. Doesn't really seem like the most reliable source does it? But here's a real response to your question.

First, its not surprising that a firm could have a fun summer program and be a lousy place for associates. Summer means going out to lots of fancy lunches, parties at partners houses and a few big events. A fun summer program means the firm has a good event planner. Also, nobody knows how good each summer associate is going to be.

By the time you're a mid-level associate you are expected to be able to do actual legal work and to earn your keep. That can easily mean long hours at really boring work like making sure there are no mistakes in interminable complex documents or dealing with all kinds esoteric details of civil procedure.

Moreover, the partners will have identified the associates they want to mentor and those they want to use for grunt work and then cast aside. If you're in the latter group, your job will not be much fun. If you're in the former group it may not be much fun either since having a mentor doesn't just mean you have someone who wants to help you. Having a mentor is a two way street, you've got to be able to get things done for your mentor and that may mean being available 24/7 and fixing messes made by less competent people that could hurt your mentor's clients. If you're unable or unwilling to do this, your mentor can find someone else who is.

So what can you do? Before relying on the survey you cite, you should get more information about it. How many associates did they survey at Schulte, did they see if there were differences across practice groups, do they provide any detail on what associates did not like (e.g. was it the hours, abusive partners, lack of opportunity to develop skills and clients, some of these may be more important to you than others). The ABA should be able to give you info on their survey.

More importantly you want to find out from the associates at the firm what their lives are really like. Given the importance of the decision, you can see Schulte will set up a call with an associate or two (maybe a junior and a mid-level) so you can ask open-ended questions about what they do on a typical day, how they are evaluated, what sort of opportunities they have (they want you know so they'll likely to be willing to do this). Come up with the questions before the calls, keep them open ended so it doesn't seem like you have unrealistic expectations, be organized and don't take to much their time. Second, think about the people you met during your interviews. Often you can tell whether someone is a jerk pretty quickly. Finally, think about where you want to end up and see if it matches were Schulte associates go. If you just want to be an associate for a few years and then go into a hedge fund, and lots of Schulte associates leave and go to HFs and PE, it could be a good place.

Last suggestion, if you're really concerned see if you can split your summer. That way if you don't like Schulte you can go somewhere else.

Anyway those are just my thoughts. But I'm sure, on an anonymous message board, you can find someone claiming to be a Schulte mid-level associate or partner who is willing to tell you what ever you want to know.

This post is a remarkable collection of reasonable points and dreadfully wrong ones.
It's not news that real work is different from summer associate programs.
It's true that some people end up being drones and others are candidates for advancement, but how is that relevant, if both suck?
The problem is that no matter who you ask and what you ask them, it's almost impossible to form a meaningful basis for decision before working at the firm.
The information in the surveys is unlikely to be broken down in a way that would help OP either. It would be nice if it was, but it probably isn't.
I am the poster above who weighed an offer and was very discouraged by the vibe I got. Don't you think most people have better things to do than fabricate reasonable sounding posts critical of a random v75 firm? And if four or five people post similar things (which is what would happen if the discussion lasts) it would make a lot more sense to use the advice of an anonymous message board than the advice of people who work for the firm.

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:Its a bad sign that you're asking people from an anonymous message board for help on a critically important decision like this. Doesn't really seem like the most reliable source does it? But here's a real response to your question.

First, its not surprising that a firm could have a fun summer program and be a lousy place for associates. Summer means going out to lots of fancy lunches, parties at partners houses and a few big events. A fun summer program means the firm has a good event planner. Also, nobody knows how good each summer associate is going to be.

By the time you're a mid-level associate you are expected to be able to do actual legal work and to earn your keep. That can easily mean long hours at really boring work like making sure there are no mistakes in interminable complex documents or dealing with all kinds esoteric details of civil procedure.

Moreover, the partners will have identified the associates they want to mentor and those they want to use for grunt work and then cast aside. If you're in the latter group, your job will not be much fun. If you're in the former group it may not be much fun either since having a mentor doesn't just mean you have someone who wants to help you. Having a mentor is a two way street, you've got to be able to get things done for your mentor and that may mean being available 24/7 and fixing messes made by less competent people that could hurt your mentor's clients. If you're unable or unwilling to do this, your mentor can find someone else who is.

So what can you do? Before relying on the survey you cite, you should get more information about it. How many associates did they survey at Schulte, did they see if there were differences across practice groups, do they provide any detail on what associates did not like (e.g. was it the hours, abusive partners, lack of opportunity to develop skills and clients, some of these may be more important to you than others). The ABA should be able to give you info on their survey.

More importantly you want to find out from the associates at the firm what their lives are really like. Given the importance of the decision, you can see Schulte will set up a call with an associate or two (maybe a junior and a mid-level) so you can ask open-ended questions about what they do on a typical day, how they are evaluated, what sort of opportunities they have (they want you know so they'll likely to be willing to do this). Come up with the questions before the calls, keep them open ended so it doesn't seem like you have unrealistic expectations, be organized and don't take to much their time. Second, think about the people you met during your interviews. Often you can tell whether someone is a jerk pretty quickly. Finally, think about where you want to end up and see if it matches were Schulte associates go. If you just want to be an associate for a few years and then go into a hedge fund, and lots of Schulte associates leave and go to HFs and PE, it could be a good place.

Last suggestion, if you're really concerned see if you can split your summer. That way if you don't like Schulte you can go somewhere else.

Anyway those are just my thoughts. But I'm sure, on an anonymous message board, you can find someone claiming to be a Schulte mid-level associate or partner who is willing to tell you what ever you want to know.

OP:

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:
I understand the legal job market is in trouble but, as a political science major with a 3.1 GPA, let's face it I'm not going to get a great job. I've spent months studying for the LSAT and taken it 4 times: 147, 152, 150, 149. I'm sick of living with my parents and, let's face it, the government will give me more money to go to law school, as living expenses, than I can make in any job I could get.

I'm currently trying to decide between SLU and Villanova. SLU is tops in health care law. For those who don't know that's one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy. Its also in the middle of a terrific city, Saint Louis.

Based on your long-winded, self-important answer that touched on nothing related to Schulte itself, I figured I might find something like this. Please don't answer a question if you literally don't know anything about what you're talking about.

Lol wtf this thread is a s*** storm

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:
I understand the legal job market is in trouble but, as a political science major with a 3.1 GPA, let's face it I'm not going to get a great job. I've spent months studying for the LSAT and taken it 4 times: 147, 152, 150, 149. I'm sick of living with my parents and, let's face it, the government will give me more money to go to law school, as living expenses, than I can make in any job I could get.

I'm currently trying to decide between SLU and Villanova. SLU is tops in health care law. For those who don't know that's one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy. Its also in the middle of a terrific city, Saint Louis.

Based on your long-winded, self-important answer that touched on nothing related to Schulte itself, I figured I might find something like this. Please don't answer a question if you literally don't know anything about what you're talking about.

LOL

Seward & Kissel for hedge funds. Hands down.

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:Its a bad sign that you're asking people from an anonymous message board for help on a critically important decision like this. Doesn't really seem like the most reliable source does it?

LOL just LOL at this.

I loved everyone I met at Schulte. They did not offer me, and I still would have picked them any day, so I'm not biased at all. IDK why you would pick any of the other firms (seward, dechert, etc.) over Kirkland, however. Even if you don't like hedge fund work, Kirkland at least is generally good on corporate (if you happent to not like PE work). Schulte pretty much just has hedge on lock.

Schulte is where people with no other offers go.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm not the OP but I'm in the same boat and am looking at Schulte or Kirkland NY. Not sure whether I want to do PE/MA or hedge fund work, so I'm having a tough time deciding, but that ATL article surprised me as well.

Go to Kirkland

911 crisis actor wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I'm not the OP but I'm in the same boat and am looking at Schulte or Kirkland NY. Not sure whether I want to do PE/MA or hedge fund work, so I'm having a tough time deciding, but that ATL article surprised me as well.

Go to Kirkland

yeah wtf. Not sure if this is more subtle Schulte trolling or what.

Desert Fox wrote:Schulte is where people with no other offers go.

This is credited.