Winston Strawn v. Schulte v. Cadwalader v. Clifford Chance Forum

[banjo]

Cadwalader no offered 2 summers last year. W&S had that whole no offer debacle a few years ago. I would go with Schulte or CC here.

[JusticeHarlan]

IMO, Cadwalader is the easy choice here.

Your choice should really be between Cadwalader and Schulte (both in the Am Law Super Rich firms). The Super Rich firms are on a different trajectory and are really a tier above all other firms (except for a few elite boutiques). The gap between the Super Rich firms and the non-Super Rich firms is only going to widen over the next decade.

Cadwalader is much stronger than Schulte in the practices groups you mentioned other than hedge fund work (especially capital markets; Cadwalader probably has one of the strongest, if not the strongest, cap mkts group in the country right now).

Cadwalader is also much more prestigious overall than Winston/Schulte/CC, at least among finance professionals and those on Wall Street. If I were you, I wouldn’t listen to any of that “worst place to work” talk because it is likely utter nonsense.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I didn't apply or bid on these firms, but I will say this cap markets claim is patently ridiculous

Cadwalader's capital markets group is Band 1 Nationwide in the latest Chambers, so to say that it has one of the strongest capital markets groups in the country right now is hardly ridiculous.

http://www.chambers-associate.com/Law/FirmFeature/3518

Apparently it's band 1 for derivatives, band 2 for securitisation, and not ranked in equity and debt. Make of that what you will, but imo its kinda hard to refer to a firm that isn't ranked in offerings of stocks and bonds as the strongest capital markets group in the country.

[JamMasterJ]

IMO, Cadwalader is the easy choice here.

Your choice should really be between Cadwalader and Schulte (both in the Am Law Super Rich firms). The Super Rich firms are on a different trajectory and are really a tier above all other firms (except for a few elite boutiques). The gap between the Super Rich firms and the non-Super Rich firms is only going to widen over the next decade.

Cadwalader is much stronger than Schulte in the practices groups you mentioned other than hedge fund work (especially capital markets; Cadwalader probably has one of the strongest, if not the strongest, cap mkts group in the country right now).

Cadwalader is also much more prestigious overall than Winston/Schulte/CC, at least among finance professionals and those on Wall Street. If I were you, I wouldn’t listen to any of that “worst place to work” talk because it is likely utter nonsense.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I didn't apply or bid on these firms, but I will say this cap markets claim is patently ridiculous

Cadwalader's capital markets group is Band 1 Nationwide in the latest Chambers, so to say that it has one of the strongest capital markets groups in the country right now is hardly ridiculous.

http://www.chambers-associate.com/Law/FirmFeature/3518

Apparently it's band 1 for derivatives, band 2 for securitisation, and not ranked in equity and debt. Make of that what you will, but imo its kinda hard to refer to a firm that isn't ranked in offerings of stocks and bonds as the strongest capital markets group in the country.

IIRC, their debt and equity offerings come out of a different group than the others. Though I'd be surprised if that actually affects whether Chambers can properly categorize things.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all of the replies!

To help with the advice. I am very interested in joining SRZ's investment management group, but my understanding is that it is oversubscribed and they don't let you know what practice group you get until right before you start. Can anyone speak to the likelihood of getting into the IM group?

Cadwalader seems fantastic for derivatives/structured products, securitization and financial services regulation. Could anyone speak to the exit options into other firms, government, banks from these groups? I also know the firm no offered a couple of people last summer. Does anyone know what happened? How worried should I be about career stability at Cadwalader?

Finally, Clifford Chance seemed great and I would be happy going abroad to the UK or Europe if that was where the best exit options where.

Like I said I am most interested in long term career opportunities. Ideally, I would want to stay with whatever firm I joined. But I know the realities of making partner or counsel at such firms. The next best options would be to lateral to another firm or go in house (bank, hedge fund, wherever).

Thanks again!

[Tsc402]

OP would you mind PM'ing me your Winston timeline? Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

OP do you mind sharing your Winston timeline? I'm still waiting...

[Anonymous User]

Where would Baker & McKenzie - NY fit into this ranking? Below Clifford and Cadwalader, above SRZ(unless hedge fund focused) and Winston?

[Anonymous User]

Where would Baker & McKenzie - NY fit into this ranking? Below Clifford and Cadwalader, above SRZ(unless hedge fund focused) and Winston?

None of these firms are significantly better than the others in NY

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Time to make a decision and I think I am going with Cadwalader. I checked and their offer rates were 100% in 2011, 2012 and 2014.

The only thing that concerns me is the leverage ratio (a little under 7). I figure, maybe incorrectly, that with that high of a leverage ratio if things slow down the firm may be likely to be cutting associates. Is this is a legitimate concern? Am I taking a big risk here? Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Time to make a decision and I think I am going with Cadwalader. I checked and their offer rates were 100% in 2011, 2012 and 2014.

The only thing that concerns me is the leverage ratio (a little under 7). I figure, maybe incorrectly, that with that high of a leverage ratio if things slow down the firm may be likely to be cutting associates. Is this is a legitimate concern? Am I taking a big risk here? Thanks!

Kind of? If you have other options it may be in your best bet to take those. See what they did in regards to cutting associates with the recession.

FWIW I like Cadwalader but not over the others if you're risk averse.

[Anonymous User]

Only the extremely brave, extremely foolish, or both, go to work at Cadwalader. Better pray the economy stays strong.

[subtle]

Can speak about Cadwalader no-offering if you PM.

[Anonymous User]

Only the extremely brave, extremely foolish, or both, go to work at Cadwalader. Better pray the economy stays strong.

This is just misinformed. Work there. Firm is not the sweatshop this forum says.

Layoffs were capital markets work and mostly in Charlotte office. Firm is way more balanced now.

[Anonymous User]

Only the extremely brave, extremely foolish, or both, go to work at Cadwalader. Better pray the economy stays strong.

This is just misinformed. Work there. Firm is not the sweatshop this forum says.

Layoffs were capital markets work and mostly in Charlotte office. Firm is way more balanced now.

Think it's safe to go back to the Charlotte office yet? What's the vibe you get from them?

[Law Sauce]

I have no real interest in this fight and thus I am not super informed about this, but my sense is that Cadwalader would probably be my choice here. I have heard both good and bad about culture at Cadwalader, and it is unclear how much of the "cadwalader is a terrible place to work" stick is a little outdated. I know people who have left Schulte though, and they say that depending on the group you may be working an awful lot of hours. But this is true of pretty much anywhere. So I would not put too much stock in culture considerations between similar places (you are going to need to find a good place/partners for you in any of these large organizations). However, I think that Cadwalader is probably the stronger firm in more practice areas that you mentioned (all but hedge funds), so I would advise going there.

Edit: this advice is not taking into account any no-offering rumors or facts

[Anonymous User]

I have no real interest in this fight and thus I am not super informed about this, but my sense is that Cadwalader would probably be my choice here. I have heard both good and bad about culture at Cadwalader, and it is unclear how much of the "cadwalader is a terrible place to work" stick is a little outdated. I know people who have left Schulte though, and they say that depending on the group you may be working an awful lot of hours. But this is true of pretty much anywhere. So I would not put too much stock in culture considerations between similar places (you are going to need to find a good place/partners for you in any of these large organizations). However, I think that Cadwalader is probably the stronger firm in more practice areas that you mentioned (all but hedge funds), so I would advise going there.

Edit: this advice is not taking into account any no-offering rumors or facts

.

[Anonymous User]

Only the extremely brave, extremely foolish, or both, go to work at Cadwalader. Better pray the economy stays strong.

This is just misinformed. Work there. Firm is not the sweatshop this forum says.

Layoffs were capital markets work and mostly in Charlotte office. Firm is way more balanced now.

Think it's safe to go back to the Charlotte office yet? What's the vibe you get from them?

Yeah they're really busy. It's better staffed now and the firm overall is more balanced.