Choosing an offer within the V10 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Different poster here. I'm leaning towards taking Skadden over Simpson Thacher and Davis Polk (all NY) SOLELY based on fit. I'm interested in M&A/Corporate. I assume there are basically no differences when it comes to the work, exit options, etc?

[Morgan12Oak]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

This makes little sense. If you find yourself in a certain department with a workgroup you hit it off with, why is that not more important than the negligible difference between V9 and V6? If you are going to gett buttfucked by hours, why not do it with some people you can tolerate?

Because the people you hit it off with are more often than not just a front (i.e. recruiting putting people pleasant in front of you) and is often not indicative of the group; not to mention, the fact that 2/3rds of the people "you hit it off with" during recruiting will be gone by the time you are a first year.

Short story - if you're going to get butt fucked, you want to get butt fucked by someone with a bigger name. For instance, if you had to get butt fucked, you'd much prefer to get it from Leonardo DiCaprio than Daniel Radcliffe.

[venus]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

I disagree. I would recommend doing second visits to meet more people and get a better idea of the work environment. Even during my callbacks I got a pretty good idea of where I definitely would not want to work and where I could maybe feel comfortable. Of course there are no guarantees, and you only meet a tiny fraction of the people who work there. But you could observe a lot of things (how quiet the place is; how the partners and associates interact with you and with each other; for firms that give you tours or where a recruiter/assistant takes you from office to office, how they feel about the place, how long they've worked there, and how they interact with the attorneys there, etc.). And I think these things are important precisely because you will work long hours no matter where you go. Why be even more miserable by forcing yourself to go to a place you think is a bad fit...

[bjsesq]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

This makes little sense. If you find yourself in a certain department with a workgroup you hit it off with, why is that not more important than the negligible difference between V9 and V6? If you are going to gett buttfucked by hours, why not do it with some people you can tolerate?

Because the people you hit it off with are more often than not just a front (i.e. recruiting putting people pleasant in front of you) and is often not indicative of the group; not to mention, the fact that 2/3rds of the people "you hit it off with" during recruiting will be gone by the time you are a first year.

Short story - if you're going to get butt fucked, you want to get butt fucked by someone with a bigger name. For instance, if you had to get butt fucked, you'd much prefer to get it from Leonardo DiCaprio than Daniel Radcliffe.

This is such a ridiculous conclusion. If you are corporate, what about type of work based on clients? What sort of clients does STB have that DPW doesn't, and vice versa? And it was damn easy for me to discern who was bullshitting in my department versus who was genuinely chill.

[baal hadad]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

This makes little sense. If you find yourself in a certain department with a workgroup you hit it off with, why is that not more important than the negligible difference between V9 and V6? If you are going to gett buttfucked by hours, why not do it with some people you can tolerate?

Prestige will make up for it

[Morgan12Oak]

This is such a ridiculous conclusion. If you are corporate, why about type of work based on clients? What sort of clients does STB have that DPW doesn't, and vice versa? And it was damn easy for me to discern who was bullshitting in my department versus who was genuinely chill.

lmao ty for this. you literally picked 2 firms that basically have no discernible differences [unless you were 100% set on PE or Cap Mkts, which in that case i said it makes sense to pick one over the other].

[sideroxylon]

so is Morgan some kind of Skadden fanboy here?

that's about the only context where this is making sense to me

[bjsesq]

This is such a ridiculous conclusion. If you are corporate, why about type of work based on clients? What sort of clients does STB have that DPW doesn't, and vice versa? And it was damn easy for me to discern who was bullshitting in my department versus who was genuinely chill.

lmao ty for this. you literally picked 2 firms that basically have no discernible differences [unless you were 100% set on PE or Cap Mkts, which in that case i said it makes sense to pick one over the other].

Sooooooooooo, corporate departments with differences that may change your opinion based on your goals. Thanks for getting my back?

[Neal Patrick Harris]

while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter.

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

[Morgan12Oak]

This is such a ridiculous conclusion. If you are corporate, why about type of work based on clients? What sort of clients does STB have that DPW doesn't, and vice versa? And it was damn easy for me to discern who was bullshitting in my department versus who was genuinely chill.

lmao ty for this. you literally picked 2 firms that basically have no discernible differences [unless you were 100% set on PE or Cap Mkts, which in that case i said it makes sense to pick one over the other].

Sooooooooooo, corporate departments with differences that may change your opinion based on your goals. Thanks for getting my back?

Thanks for reading my original post: "Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively." I'm sure your great observational skills surely helped you "discern who was bullshitting" in your department.

[Morgan12Oak]

while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter.

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

TY for posting this. I've never read this before - very interesting.

[JusticeHarlan]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

*picks Skadden over S&C for one spot on Vault ranking*
*cries self to sleep after S&C leapfrogs Skadden in next years rankings*

[Neal Patrick Harris]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

*picks Skadden over S&C for one spot on Vault ranking*
*cries self to sleep after S&C leapfrogs Skadden in next years rankings*

skadden trolling but i'm cool with anything anti S&C

[Morgan12Oak]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

*picks Skadden over S&C for one spot on Vault ranking*
*cries self to sleep after S&C leapfrogs Skadden in next years rankings*

One spot doesn't really matter unless its V1 v V2, but you'd be retarded, all things equal, to pick like L&W over Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB [in NY].

[gk101]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

*picks Skadden over S&C for one spot on Vault ranking*
*cries self to sleep after S&C leapfrogs Skadden in next years rankings*

One spot doesn't really matter unless its V1 v V2, but you'd be retarded, all things equal, to pick like L&W over Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB.

except that's rarely the case when you are choosing between two offers. practice groups/people in those practice groups/clients/type of work you will doing are all more important that a few spots in the Vault rankings

[Morgan12Oak]

Pick the highest ranked one unless theres a practice area one is far better in objectively. Culture and shit and what people say is important (i.e. picking the place you feel fits you the most) is complete and utter bullshit. It's a huge myth that one V10 firm is a better fit for you than another and just perpetuated by people who like to justify to themselves that they have picked the "right firm" for them.

You'll work your ass off until the wee hours every night at any of the V10 firms (and plenty more) and while some firms may have more people you enjoy being around, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, shit stinks whether you eat flowers or taco bell.

*picks Skadden over S&C for one spot on Vault ranking*
*cries self to sleep after S&C leapfrogs Skadden in next years rankings*

One spot doesn't really matter unless its V1 v V2, but you'd be retarded, all things equal, to pick like L&W over Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB.

except that's rarely the case when you are choosing between two offers. practice groups/people in those practice groups/clients/type of work you will doing are all more important that a few spots in the Vault rankings

Agree with the practice groups thing, but only on objective terms. I think the "people" and "culture" argument is all bullshit. Just saying if someone wants to do general corporate work and undecided on specific group [probably even if they were set on a practice group in this case tbh] and they liked the people better at say L&W but also has an offer at STB/DPW, they'd be making a mistake in going to L&W.

[Old Gregg]

FIERCE argument ITT singlehandedly demonstrate why deciding between law firms solely based on Vault rankings is stupid.

Can we end this dumb thread now?

[Morgan12Oak]

FIERCE argument ITT singlehandedly demonstrate why deciding between law firms solely based on Vault rankings is stupid.

Can we end this dumb thread now?

nah bro i enjoy it - just saying taking L&W over like S&C is like picking Georgetown over NYU because you connected better with the people lmao. shouldn't be that controversial

[bjsesq]

FIERCE argument ITT singlehandedly demonstrate why deciding between law firms solely based on Vault rankings is stupid.

Can we end this dumb thread now?

There have already been 3 "This is dumb posts" in this thread. Please, don't be a douche and try to contribute.

[Morgan12Oak]

FIERCE argument ITT singlehandedly demonstrate why deciding between law firms solely based on Vault rankings is stupid.

Can we end this dumb thread now?

There have already been 3 "This is dumb posts" in this thread. Please, don't be a douche and try to contribute.

Never really understood ppl who come into threads to say shit like "this is dumb, can we end this thread" as if like this thread getting more posts somehow takes away from his bandwidth or something lmao. Like you come into a thread to read a bunch of posts just to comment on how dumb it is? Surely you got better things to do I'd hope.

Curious what happens if he/she reads a thread that they agree with, will the post be "oh what a scholar!" instead?

[Anonymous User]

Just say the firms and your practice area interests if you want people to discuss whatever minor differences exist. If you don't want to do that for whatever reason then type the firms into the search box at the bottom of this page, as every V10ish firm has been compared to every other V-10ish firm at some point on this site.

OP here. Reason for the ambiguity is that I'm not looking for specific differences, I'm really only concerned about whether and to what degree the rankings themselves correlate to anything I should care about. If they just don't matter then that's great info too.

[Tiago Splitter]

Just say the firms and your practice area interests if you want people to discuss whatever minor differences exist. If you don't want to do that for whatever reason then type the firms into the search box at the bottom of this page, as every V10ish firm has been compared to every other V-10ish firm at some point on this site.

OP here. Reason for the ambiguity is that I'm not looking for specific differences, I'm really only concerned about whether and to what degree the rankings themselves correlate to anything I should care about. If they just don't matter then that's great info too.

I mean I guess they kind of correlate to NYC corporate reputations. But they don't really matter in and of themselves, which is why people flip out when someone asks about rankings. For corporate, Cravath and Cleary are basically equal but both are better than Covington. But they aren't better because V10 is automatically better than V11.

[Morgan12Oak]

Just say the firms and your practice area interests if you want people to discuss whatever minor differences exist. If you don't want to do that for whatever reason then type the firms into the search box at the bottom of this page, as every V10ish firm has been compared to every other V-10ish firm at some point on this site.

OP here. Reason for the ambiguity is that I'm not looking for specific differences, I'm really only concerned about whether and to what degree the rankings themselves correlate to anything I should care about. If they just don't matter then that's great info too.

The rankings are basically bullshit which correlate to what other lawyers/associates think of your firm's name (its a survey that associates at law firms fill out). But, that actually means a lot given reputation is more than half of being a lawyer and given that the people hiring you for other positions after leaving the law firm have probably been associates who at one pointed ranked firms (in probably a manner similar and consistent with the rankings).

[Old Gregg]

FIERCE argument ITT singlehandedly demonstrate why deciding between law firms solely based on Vault rankings is stupid.

Can we end this dumb thread now?

There have already been 3 "This is dumb posts" in this thread. Please, don't be a douche and try to contribute.

Thanks man. I got your sarcasm in one of your prior posts. Try not falling over while trying too hard.

[bjsesq]

FIERCE argument ITT singlehandedly demonstrate why deciding between law firms solely based on Vault rankings is stupid.

Can we end this dumb thread now?

There have already been 3 "This is dumb posts" in this thread. Please, don't be a douche and try to contribute.

Thanks man. I got your sarcasm in one of your prior posts. Try not falling over while trying too hard.

Just try to live up to the bullshit metrics you retardedly try to impose on others. Oh, and please don't out me.