Is there discrimination against Asians in biglaw Forum

[Anonymous User]

Definitely a huge barrier to entry. If you're an Asian male, you basically get reverse affirmative action'ed, so unless you have near-perfect to perfect grades from a T14 with prestigious background/experiences, forget biglaw. And if you've been following current events, you'll see that Americans in general have this.... distaste/general dislike for Asian males. Add on all the negative stereotypes, and basically, the cards are HEAVILY stacked against you (which is why you need near-perfect to perfect grades from an elite school to offset all the prejudged negativity and have at least a shot).

Asian males are like Jews back in the day. The barrier to entry is so high that it's probably better for them to start their own firms and such doing specializations that other firms don't - like the Jews did back in the early 20th century. But they don't have what the Jews did to raise their standing in the American industries they were discriminated against in: in-group favoritism/affinity networking. Asian-Americans in general do not seem too keen on helping each other out.

Why do think this is the case?

[Anonymous User]

I'm an Asian-American at a V10, senior associate in litigation. I can echo sentiments in this thread about seeing, over the course of years, both at my firm and others, how minorities are not given the client-facetime, networking, and BD opportunities others are. What's most infuriating is that firms like mine say SO MUCH in public (in the press, during interviews, on LinkedIn, etc.) about how they encourage associates to develop business, grow professionally, etc. And yet it's definitely the case that minorities are just not given the same support in practice.

I have no idea what to do about this, because if you make noise in your firm you'll be seen as "problematic" or entitled, or pushy. So it's a self-perpetuating cycle, where we keep our heads down, do good work, but don't get BD opportunities or support -- again, in direct conflict with what firm leadership insists that it does, in public.

[lawlo]

In my experience at my T-14 there was clear bias against Asians. While other minorities such as Latinos or Black students were very easily given 1L summer jobs at firms and a variety of special privileges because of their race, my friends who were Asian seemed to go to lesser ranked firms than they should have as most had good grades and were generally nice people (so interviews should have gone ok). One more data point. But not surprising, affirmative action/diversity discrimination has been horrible for Asian students and middle to lower class White students. Looking forward to the SC's ruling on this.

[Anonymous User]

In my experience at my T-14 there was clear bias against Asians. While other minorities such as Latinos or Black students were very easily given 1L summer jobs at firms and a variety of special privileges because of their race, my friends who were Asian seemed to go to lesser ranked firms than they should have as most had good grades and were generally nice people (so interviews should have gone ok). One more data point. But not surprising, affirmative action/diversity discrimination has been horrible for Asian students and middle to lower class White students. Looking forward to the SC's ruling on this.

Preach!

[Anonymous User]

A well known SV firm no offered several summers, and supposedly they were all Asian.

[Lacepiece23]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

[Anonymous User]

A well known SV firm no offered several summers, and supposedly they were all Asian.

Name and shame please.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

Asians are in a unique position of being racial minorities, which exposes them to bias, while also not benefitting from affirmative action (and often being held to an even higher standard than white peers). I think biglaw is getting better in this respect, though, with more Asian partners and more AAPI affinity groups.

[Anonymous User]

On the one hand, if you're Asian (East Asian or South Asian), people generally won't question your competence in the same manner that they might if you're Black or visibly Latinx. Lawyers and clients correctly observe that Asians don't benefit from affirmative action in law school admissions, so if you're Asian and attended a T6, you probably had at least a 3.9 UGPA and 172 LSAT. (This is empirically correct, although obviously numbers and competence as an attorney don't perfectly correlate.) On the other hand, you won't benefit from affirmative action in hiring the way Black and Latinx candidates might, and you'll be viewed as less sociable and culturally well-adjusted than white folks. Plus there's the cultural stereotype of East Asian males as being less masculine, which can creep into subjective assessments of leadership potential in firm performance reviews. It's a weird conundrum indeed.

[Anonymous User]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

True on some level.

Also relevant:

“Google is setting strict caps on the number of white and Asian students that universities can nominate for a prestigious fellowship program”

https://freebeacon.com/campus/google-pa ... e-illegal/

[Anonymous User]

On the one hand, if you're Asian (East Asian or South Asian), people generally won't question your competence in the same manner that they might if you're Black or visibly Latinx. Lawyers and clients correctly observe that Asians don't benefit from affirmative action in law school admissions, so if you're Asian and attended a T6, you probably had at least a 3.9 UGPA and 172 LSAT. (This is empirically correct, although obviously numbers and competence as an attorney don't perfectly correlate.) On the other hand, you won't benefit from affirmative action in hiring the way Black and Latinx candidates might, and you'll be viewed as less sociable and culturally well-adjusted than white folks. Plus there's the cultural stereotype of East Asian males as being less masculine, which can creep into subjective assessments of leadership potential in firm performance reviews. It's a weird conundrum indeed.

This — low income Asians tend to suffer the most from affirmative action because high stats are almost uniformly expected from Asians and Asians do not genuinely benefit from most diversity initiatives

[Anonymous User]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

Including positive discrimination and outright quota targets at several major public companies.

[Anonymous User]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

Including positive discrimination and outright quota targets at several major public companies.

Aren't these quotas meant to help discrimination?

[nixy]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

Including positive discrimination and outright quota targets at several major public companies.

That doesn’t say anything about how people hired that way will be treated while on the job, though.

[Anonymous User]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

Including positive discrimination and outright quota targets at several major public companies.

Aren't these quotas meant to help discrimination?

Spell this out a bit more

[Anonymous User]

If you are not white, you are going to face discrimination in corporate America. Close thread.

Including positive discrimination and outright quota targets at several major public companies.

That doesn’t say anything about how people hired that way will be treated while on the job, though.

[Anonymous User]

Of course there is, and the ugly truth of all diversity programs is that they are designed to drive Asians out of offices/schools without ever saying or admitting the obvious effect.

As a terrific/egregious example from today, in the Ny Times's latest screed against affirmative action, they mentioned the word "Asian" once in a 2000-word article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/26/us/a ... &smtyp=cur

[Anonymous User]

Agreed with the above posters. There is a clear bias against asian males in law and corporate American in general unless you are in engineering, finance/accounting, or maybe medicine. Even though I am extremely Americanized (called a banana regularly, lol), the mere fact that I have an asian face has put me at a disadvantage several times over.

IMHO, I feel like Asian males get the discrimination because we are usually physically smaller, culturally more reserved, etc. Even if an Asian male is average height/tall, buff, and extroverted or whatever, we are still associated with that reputation and therefore get treated differently.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a stereotypical Asian—introvert, lacking interest in sports, don’t take full credit for what I do, etc. Having grown up in a mostly-white suburb, I understood from an early age that I will probably never fit in with the white crowd and I’m not going to sacrifice who I am to be part of them. So instead of fighting an uphill battle, I embraced my AA-self. I hung out with mostly Asians and AAs in college and law school and moved to a city with a strong Asian presence. I didn’t mind doing the “less glowing” Asian-centric work because I figured if I can do it better than anyone else, that’s still a value-add to the firm and they are going to want to keep me around, plus I genuinely liked the people in the Asian office. Recently I moved to an in-house position at a tech company, apparently outperforming other candidates with many more years of experience because the hiring manager thought I understood the company better. Well, I understood them because, before my interviews, I reached out to a handful of engineering AA friends to learn about the company and their sub-industry.
I guess my experience has been that even when the legal community at-large discriminates against Asians (and it certainly does), it doesn’t mean that we don’t have our competitive advantages and those advantages should be taken to their maximum. It is unfortunately that our traditional virtues and values may not make us biglaw partners, but they might take us surprisingly far.

[Anonymous User]

I see a lot of negative responses, so I will share my own experience as a first gen AA, which is more positive, to give folks who are just joining the profession a more balanced view. Until recently, I was a senior litigation associate at a major NYC BigLaw firm. I decided to leave for a government position (think SDNY/EDNY, SEC) because it's important to have government experience in my field and because I want better work-life balance for at least the next few years since I have young kids. My practice group head told me that I would've made partner had I stayed and I have an open invitation to return, so there was definitely a path forward if I wanted to stay in private practice.

At my old firm, AAs are about equally represented within the equity partnership as the general population (spread out across different practices and our presence in Asia is negligible), and overrepresented in associate classes. My firm had a bigger issue in terms of retaining/promoting lawyers who are Black, Latino, or of other underrepresented minorities, so that's been a key focus (which is as it should be), but Asians are hardly discriminated against.

While I was at my firm, I was heavily involved in recruiting/mentoring. Each of our summer classes in recent memory has been at least 15% Asian and 40% diverse (the stats would be even higher if all our summer offers were accepted). For at least the past 5+ years, there has been a strong firm leadership push to promote diversity, which includes summer recruiting, lateral hiring, mentorship and training programs for diverse associates, diversity factoring into partner and client evaluations, etc. At the very least, I would say that I was on equal footing with a white male, but candidly, I think key partners and clients took a more active interest in my career development than most non-diverse associates. From a recruiting perspective, I've never heard anyone getting dinged because they're a "stereotypical" Asian--male or female--whereas this concern definitely comes up for white bros who interview well but are otherwise unremarkable.

I've personally never had any negative experiences at my old firm from a diversity perspective. I think of myself as a nerdy introvert--although I'm fairly outspoken--and "fit" has not been an issue. I don't know anything about sports, but I talk to people about things that we have in common like favorite TV shows, hobbies, vacation spots, etc. Lawyers tend to be quite nerdy so it's not hard to find common ground. I also know quite a few highly successful AA partners in different practices who find almost all their clients through networking with other AAs at alum, bar, and other trade associations because that's more within their comfort zone.

All of this is to say I'm sure discrimination against AAs exists in Biglaw (and I've heard horror stories from laterals), but that's not the experience at all big firms, especially in major markets. If that's your experience, consider lateraling. I know from law school friends that my old firm is hardly exceptional.

[Anonymous User]

I see a lot of negative responses, so I will share my own experience as a first gen AA, which is more positive, to give folks who are just joining the profession a more balanced view. Until recently, I was a senior litigation associate at a major NYC BigLaw firm. I decided to leave for a government position (think SDNY/EDNY, SEC) because it's important to have government experience in my field and because I want better work-life balance for at least the next few years since I have young kids. My practice group head told me that I would've made partner had I stayed and I have an open invitation to return, so there was definitely a path forward if I wanted to stay in private practice.

At my old firm, AAs are about equally represented within the equity partnership as the general population (spread out across different practices and our presence in Asia is negligible), and overrepresented in associate classes. My firm had a bigger issue in terms of retaining/promoting lawyers who are Black, Latino, or of other underrepresented minorities, so that's been a key focus (which is as it should be), but Asians are hardly discriminated against.

While I was at my firm, I was heavily involved in recruiting/mentoring. Each of our summer classes in recent memory has been at least 15% Asian and 40% diverse (the stats would be even higher if all our summer offers were accepted). For at least the past 5+ years, there has been a strong firm leadership push to promote diversity, which includes summer recruiting, lateral hiring, mentorship and training programs for diverse associates, diversity factoring into partner and client evaluations, etc. At the very least, I would say that I was on equal footing with a white male, but candidly, I think key partners and clients took a more active interest in my career development than most non-diverse associates. From a recruiting perspective, I've never heard anyone getting dinged because they're a "stereotypical" Asian--male or female--whereas this concern definitely comes up for white bros who interview well but are otherwise unremarkable.

I've personally never had any negative experiences at my old firm from a diversity perspective. I think of myself as a nerdy introvert--although I'm fairly outspoken--and "fit" has not been an issue. I don't know anything about sports, but I talk to people about things that we have in common like favorite TV shows, hobbies, vacation spots, etc. Lawyers tend to be quite nerdy so it's not hard to find common ground. I also know quite a few highly successful AA partners in different practices who find almost all their clients through networking with other AAs at alum, bar, and other trade associations because that's more within their comfort zone.

All of this is to say I'm sure discrimination against AAs exists in Biglaw (and I've heard horror stories from laterals), but that's not the experience at all big firms, especially in major markets. If that's your experience, consider lateraling. I know from law school friends that my old firm is hardly exceptional.

[Lopodop]

If anyone wants a deeper dive into this, see what Thomas Sowell has to say. It's all over internet. Even a great podcast "The Genius of Thomas Sowell" on Stitcher.

[Anonymous User]

I think there are three different groups of “Asians,” and they each are impacted differently.

1. People who moved here later in life. They generally don’t care about DEI or discrimination from white colleagues. They are mostly very stereotypical Asians.

2. People who moved here at a young age or were born to parents who moved to the US as adults. I think this group suffers the most because they still feel like the other. They experience the true immigrant journey even if they may not even be immigrants. They almost always still have “Asian” names, which for better or worse, can be a disadvantage since it still “others” people. They still feel a strong connection to the mother land (did their summer internships there, considered moving back) because they feel more comfortable in Asian spaces, even if they grew up in white America. A lot are mostly Americanized but still don’t feel like they fit in. I think this is where most Asians in our generation (not Gen Z) fit in. I think this group cares the most about DEI initiatives.

3. Asians whose parents/grandparents moved here early/were born here. You see some in biglaw (not as much because this would mean their parents moved here/were born here pre-1970). Their parents were immigrants/first gen who excelled in school, became Americanized and so they have a completely different upbringing. They feel very comfortable in white spaces, and they can have conversations about vacationing or skiing in XYZ because they had those experiences. A lot of the “successful” non-IP attorneys I’ve encountered in biglaw fall into this group. They obviously still face some discrimination because they look different.

Edit: I know this is a lot of generalizations but I wanted to just paint with a broad brush because I think people are coming at this from different perspectives.

I was a very mediocre student, but I interview very well, so I have been able to land biglaw jobs even though I “look” different since I’m Asian. At the end of the day, people need to feel comfortable with you and want to work with you. The partner I currently work under and I have a very good relationship. We grew up in similar areas, enjoy talking about college football, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Definitely an interesting thread here. I'm a little worried that people are making objective claims (rampant discrimination) based on their subjective experiences, but I can't say I really have any data to offer. As a non-asian, I just want to say that I respect my asian colleagues deeply and don't personally think of them as better or worse workers than any other ethnic background.

One thing I find interesting on this topic is Amy Chua's (Tiger Mother book) hypothesis about having a chip on your shoulder (i.e., perceiving the world as oppressive) actually leading to career success:

• “It’s weird to think of somebody simultaneously feeling insecure and superior,” Chua said. “And yet, it’s that unlikely, almost unstable combination that generates drive, this kind of hunger to be respected, this need to prove yourself and show everyone, almost like a chip-on-your-shoulder mentality.”

[Anonymous User]

I don't know if I fall into the right demographic for this thread, but I'm first-generation, Indian-American man (born in US; parents immigrated from India).

Based on my experiences working in NYC biglaw over the past 5 years, I have not seen nor faced discrimination for being Asian / non-white. Further, I have seen discrimination against African-Americans, latinx-Americans and women, with much greater frequency than that I've seen discrimination against Asian men.

Even in this thread, there is an underlying theme that most black and latino persons benefit from affirmative action. While statistically true that AA helps black and latino persons, it is often used as a mark against a lawyer even when that lawyer is perfectly competent / qualified for their position.

I'm not trying to make the Thomas Clarence argument that AA is actually bad for the minorities who benefit from it, but I am making the point that when I walk into the room or get on a call, no one is doubting my competence or thinks I got to my position because of special preferences.

In terms of BD and advancement, it's tough for me to say one way or another as I'm only a mid-level associate and this isn't wholly relevant for me yet. However, I've found that doing good work puts you on good matters. Additionally, in my experience, speaking up and contributing / making your presence known on conference calls gets you invited to BD events (do not speak up if you're a first-year with nothing to add/contribute - your role is probably to take detailed notes and it will annoy your seniors if you do this and we will be hesitant to staff you on future matters).

I do think there are a good amount of partners/seniors who are huge fucking creeps and always trying to get "cute/hot" girls on their matters, and many of the women associates I work with (including my wife) have complained about the same to me in private. If you think that is some kind of advantage, I think you're sorely wrong and need to reevaluate some things.

Finally, do I believe there is racism against Asian men / non-whites in general in big law? Of course I do. We all grew up / live in an inherently racist society and are bombarded by racist/stereotyped media representations that subconsciously indoctrinate us as racists.

Do I believe racism is rampant in biglaw or do Asian men experience much more discrimination than other minority groups? Based on my experience, no.