Lets Talk Boston Forum

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone has insight into goodwins corporate practice? I know the recent layoffs only hit the lit department but i have heard corp is sort of also slow...
GP's corporate in Boston is expanding. They are actively interviewing 3Ls at Boston schools right now because of the need for first-years. Usually a good sign.
Any specifics into what practice groups are expanding for corporate or is it like all across the board?
Nope. This is all I got (posted below) but it's significant they are conducting an entire interview schedule, on campus, in late August for only 3Ls. This has not happened in the past 4-5 years at least (that's as far as I can go back to gather information).
The Boston Office of Goodwin Procter is seeking candidates with the following credentials for their fall 2016 associate position:

Top 25%
Strong undergraduate record
Law Review or Journal Experience
Genuine interest in Corporate Law (they will not be recruiting for students interested in the litigation department)

Please provide a resume and unofficial grade sheet.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:25 pm

Has anyone heard anything pre-oci from:

nutter

mintz

foley hoag

goulston

mcdermott

any info greatly appreciated! nothing on my end except a ding from mcdermott...

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:36 pm

I worked at one of large firms in Boston for 5 years before leaving to go in-house. I can comment on my experiences, friends experiences and perception from in-house (because we utilize several Boston firms as outside counsel). This is purely from a corporate perspective:

Ropes - big deals. Some folks get great experience and do well. A lot of corporate associates get lost in the mix or staffed real deep on deals - meaning very little opportunity to take on a lot of responsibility. I met a lot of folks that got a weird mix of corporate experience too so they could do credit agreements, M&A, fund formation, securities...but all at the level of a 1st year and they were a mid-level. It seems like it was feast or famine in terms of the experiences offered from Ropes. Great firm that is well respected in the community, so you can exit to other places if need be, but you may need to make a move to other corporate firms to get solid drafting/deal management experience. The attrition is extremely high and the classes are huge so often times no one knows who you are so they are less likely to invest time in you.

Goodwin - less insight, but I think it is fairly similar to Ropes in terms of the issues I describe above.

No insight into Wilmer or Brown Rudnick - corporate practices are insignificant in my opinion. I've heard most people at BR are miserable though.

Cooley/Weil/Skadden - I'd put in same category for corporate work (although the industries that they service are pretty different). Sophisticated work but tiny offices. Cooley is more tech and Weil is more PE. Skadden is more of a mix but large deals. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to any of these because their offices are too small. They also seemed like sweatshops. I liked working with a broad range of partners because they will each have different practices and different styles - this variety will broaden your skills and make you a better lawyer. Generally speaking, you do not want to just work for one lawyer early on.

Nixon Peabody/Choate/Mintz/foley hoag: I'd put these in the same category for corporate work. They generally have low partner to associate ratios meaning more substantive work earlier on and probably better training because you interact with the partners more. Deals are smaller, but I view that as a good thing. I always fucking hated any deals north of $500M - there was usually a ton of bullshit paper pushing and diligence. It might grab a headline, but I prefer middle market deals as an associate because you get a chance to run them and you are less likely to need to pull 300+ billable months.

Burns Levinson/Nutter: Slightly below the 4 firms listed above but decent corporate practices that are also leanly staffed.

I don't have much insight into McDermott, H&K or Latham - I didn't have friends at these firms, never worked opposite them on deals and my company doesn't use them for in-house counsel.

If I were targeting firms all over again, I'd prioritize the Nixon Peabody/Choate/Mintz/foley hoag category. No matter where you go, you are likely to want to leave between years 3-6. At these firms, you are very likely to be running deals by this stage (especially by year 6) and the work is still sophisticated. They are just bigger deals and they have more specialists to pull into the deals. This is type of drafting experience is very important to obtain before moving in-house. I don't think I really appreciated this when I was applying to law firms - I thought that firms like Ropes had deals that were significantly different and more sophisticated than other big firms....they really aren't. Additionally, chances at partnership are much better than a Ropes/Goodwin. Of course, coming out of a Ropes/Goodwin as a 6th year, you might get better looks and have better connections than these firms, but it is highly unlikely you will make it to this level (especially at Ropes).

Apologies for stream of consciousness writing but I can't be bothered to clean it up. If I didn't mention a firm, it's because I had no info on them (probably because their corporate presence is insignificant around Boston). You will get very different cultural feels from each of these firms - once you get a callback, it will be apparent as you talk with people and as you walk through the hallways. Don't overanalyze now unless you need to prioritize bidding.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:t14 30~50%, secondary journal, no Boston ties. Any chance at Goodwin, Proskauer, Sullivan & Worcester, Morgan Lewis, Foley Hoag, Choate?
Well top third v. median is a huge difference... where are you closer to? t14... does this mean outside? And what are your ties like?

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard anything pre-oci from:

nutter

mintz

foley hoag

goulston

mcdermott

any info greatly appreciated! nothing on my end except a ding from mcdermott...
As posted earlier, dinged from Nutter mailing as just below top 1/3 at GULC with strong ties to boston.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard anything pre-oci from:

nutter

mintz

foley hoag

goulston

mcdermott

any info greatly appreciated! nothing on my end except a ding from mcdermott...
As posted earlier, dinged from Nutter mailing as just below top 1/3 at GULC with strong ties to boston.

how should silence be interpreted? good because still technically in the running, or bad because they didn't respond to your application right away? a previous poster said that boston firms aren't big on pre-oci hiring. maybe this means they don't start reviewing mailed/emailed apps until august?

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:17 am

Silence is always a good thing IMO- I had multiple firms that didn't get back to me for over a month. As long as it isn't a ding you are are still in the running. Obligatory don't read tea leaves.

Corp associate- thanks for sharing. Very valuable perspective. Having summered at one of the mid-market firms and having friends at others, I would definitely agree with everything you said.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by twocabins3112 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:Silence is always a good thing IMO- I had multiple firms that didn't get back to me for over a month. As long as it isn't a ding you are are still in the running. Obligatory don't read tea leaves.


this is reassuring. glad that your mass-mailing got some responses! and you're right about not reading the tea leaves.



Corp associate- thanks for sharing. Very valuable perspective. Having summered at one of the mid-market firms and having friends at others, I would definitely agree.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:34 am

Thanks to the anon for all that insight.

Anyone got stories or opinions on Proskauer Boston? I've heard varying reports about how its so much better than its NYC counterpart, but at the same time, I've talked to at least 3 previous attorneys who said they were billing around 2300-2400 hours a year for more than a few years straight and just couldn't take it anymore.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:t14 30~50%, secondary journal, no Boston ties. Any chance at Goodwin, Proskauer, Sullivan & Worcester, Morgan Lewis, Foley Hoag, Choate?
Well top third v. median is a huge difference... where are you closer to? t14... does this mean outside? And what are your ties like?
Probably closer to 40~45%. My school curve is 3.35 and my gpa is 3.50. NDCG. I have absolutely no ties to Boston except that I have few good friends who live there.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:t14 30~50%, secondary journal, no Boston ties. Any chance at Goodwin, Proskauer, Sullivan & Worcester, Morgan Lewis, Foley Hoag, Choate?
Well top third v. median is a huge difference... where are you closer to? t14... does this mean outside? And what are your ties like?
Probably closer to 40~45%. My school curve is 3.35 and my gpa is 3.50. NDCG. I have absolutely no ties to Boston except that I have few good friends who live there.

are you meeting with these firms at OCI, or mass-malling? if you already have interviews with them through OCI, and you are a good interviewer, you'll have a great shot, as long as you can articulate some good reasons for why you want to practice in boston. but it's hard to get a response from mass-mailing, especially with no real ties.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to the anon for all that insight.

Anyone got stories or opinions on Proskauer Boston? I've heard varying reports about how its so much better than its NYC counterpart, but at the same time, I've talked to at least 3 previous attorneys who said they were billing around 2300-2400 hours a year for more than a few years straight and just couldn't take it anymore.
Depends on practice group, and luck of the draw.

Boston's main practice groups are: Private Equity + M&A, Private Investment Funds, Multi Tranche Financing, Labor, Tax, Lit, IP.

Labor has the *rumored* lowest billable (somewhere around 1800). Litigation is down right now, so it's probably around 1800. IP is a mystery. And for the big 3, it varies. If you get assigned to a huge client with a close approaching, billable hours can get to the mid 2000s easily. However, the office has no target and many Jr. Associates are on pace for 1900/2000 and there is no issue.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to the anon for all that insight.

Anyone got stories or opinions on Proskauer Boston? I've heard varying reports about how its so much better than its NYC counterpart, but at the same time, I've talked to at least 3 previous attorneys who said they were billing around 2300-2400 hours a year for more than a few years straight and just couldn't take it anymore.
Depends on practice group, and luck of the draw.

Boston's main practice groups are: Private Equity + M&A, Private Investment Funds, Multi Tranche Financing, Labor, Tax, Lit, IP.

Labor has the *rumored* lowest billable (somewhere around 1800). Litigation is down right now, so it's probably around 1800. IP is a mystery. And for the big 3, it varies. If you get assigned to a huge client with a close approaching, billable hours can get to the mid 2000s easily. However, the office has no target and many Jr. Associates are on pace for 1900/2000 and there is no issue.
Gotcha, my worry wasn't whether you'd hit billables, but rather if the amount of work would be on par or almost on par with NY, which wouldn't be the general impression I've gotten for Boston firms. (Not trying to say that biglaw in Boston would be radically different or anything, just that its relatively better than NY...then again that's probably not too hard lol).

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks to the anon for all that insight.

Anyone got stories or opinions on Proskauer Boston? I've heard varying reports about how its so much better than its NYC counterpart, but at the same time, I've talked to at least 3 previous attorneys who said they were billing around 2300-2400 hours a year for more than a few years straight and just couldn't take it anymore.
Depends on practice group, and luck of the draw.

Boston's main practice groups are: Private Equity + M&A, Private Investment Funds, Multi Tranche Financing, Labor, Tax, Lit, IP.

Labor has the *rumored* lowest billable (somewhere around 1800). Litigation is down right now, so it's probably around 1800. IP is a mystery. And for the big 3, it varies. If you get assigned to a huge client with a close approaching, billable hours can get to the mid 2000s easily. However, the office has no target and many Jr. Associates are on pace for 1900/2000 and there is no issue.
Gotcha, my worry wasn't whether you'd hit billables, but rather if the amount of work would be on par or almost on par with NY, which wouldn't be the general impression I've gotten for Boston firms. (Not trying to say that biglaw in Boston would be radically different or anything, just that its relatively better than NY...then again that's probably not too hard lol).
We routinely have lawyers come from NY and they are uniformly thrilled with the environment. Lot's of Boston folks work out of NY frequently, myself included, and it's a kind reminder why the Boston office is really a lot happier/calm/friendly.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:02 pm

As far as Wilmer goes, obviously their lit game is strong, but when it comes to corporate, which practices are Wilmer's strengths? Nalp data doesn't seem to categorize beyond just "business/corporate"

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:05 pm

which firms are not strict on grade cutoffs?

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:07 pm

Different anon - which ones are strict, and what are they?

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not really, but did you apply to them through their website/how long ago?
I applied through website probably last week or so... Top 20% T20 school, some ties to Boston but definitely not what you would call solid ties. In-house experience this summer.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 pm

'

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:22 am

dinged from mintz, choate, and hoag

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:dinged from mintz, choate, and hoag
Was this through oci, massmail, something else? If you don't mind can you expand on your stats like school/ties/rank/urm? etc.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:25 am

Same anon that asked in the K&L gates thread, but anyone got info on K&L Gates in Boston?

Wondering about the outlook of the firm, whether they no offer, etc.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:dinged from mintz, choate, and hoag
Was this through oci, massmail, something else? If you don't mind can you expand on your stats like school/ties/rank/urm? etc.
massmailing. top 5 school. ties. top 3rd. not urm.

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:dinged from mintz, choate, and hoag
Was this through oci, massmail, something else? If you don't mind can you expand on your stats like school/ties/rank/urm? etc.
massmailing. top 5 school. ties. top 3rd. not urm.
Thanks a bunch for the reply. Seems troubling that they dinged you right off the bat with your stats...did you not get them through lottery/preselect and so massmailed?

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Re: Lets Talk Boston

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:As far as Wilmer goes, obviously their lit game is strong, but when it comes to corporate, which practices are Wilmer's strengths? Nalp data doesn't seem to categorize beyond just "business/corporate"
Wilmer corporate does a lot of stuff. Plenty of M&A, usually mid-market deals. They do a bunch of work with venture capital firms and emerging companies. They've also done a ton of IPOs in recent years. I think generally a good chunk of the corporate work is for clients in the tech/life sciences industries. I disagree with the anon poster above who said that Wilmer's corporate group was insignificant in Boston. It's true that the lit group is more well known and that Ropes/Goodwin have a much bigger corporate group, but I think Wilmer is still probably considered a step above the Nixon/Choate/Mintz/foley hoag/etc. tier for corporate.

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