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Hi everyone. Does anyone know of any firms that don't have face time requirements or that are pretty lax when it comes to actually being in the office? I read about Kirkland and MoFo, although it sounds like MoFo's changing a bit. This summer has been great, but the firm that I'm working for requires associates to stay in the office late (until 9 or 10 pm) even when they don't have work to do or have work that they could do from home.

I have kids and would like to be able to leave at 6ish, have dinner, then log back in to work later.

I would appreciate any advice!

damn 9-10 is brutal.

midlevel patent prosecutors can work remotely.

Williams & Connolly

DELG wrote:Williams & Connolly

Flame or for real? That seems surprising.

Even at firms with no firmwide facetime, your partner might still demand it.

arklaw13 wrote:

DELG wrote:Williams & Connolly

Flame or for real? That seems surprising.

I know someone who doesn't even live in DC

Go to a small firm. I've left by 3:30 three days this week, counting today. Yes, I already know I am leaving at 3:30 or earlier with 95% certainty, unless an existing client whom I really like walks in at 3:25. Actually, that shouldn't be a problem if I'm gone by 2:30 ...

I'll come back in Monday at 9. I have worked two Saturdays in the past year. During that time, I've fielded a total of three phone calls and zero emails from partners when I was home, none on weekends and two of the three calls were between 4:30 and 5 p.m. on weekdays, so it's hard to count those.

I'm not really bragging. The trade-off is that I don't make a lot of money, I'm on IBR, and I probably won't transfer from this job to general counsel at a Fortune 100 company. But you asked the question...

DELG wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:

DELG wrote:Williams & Connolly

Flame or for real? That seems surprising.

I know someone who doesn't even live in DC

Wow. Are their billable requirements high? Doesn't seem like they'd be as bad as Wachtell/Cravath, or most NYC firms for that matter, since their PPP isn't that high.

Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone. Does anyone know of any firms that don't have face time requirements or that are pretty lax when it comes to actually being in the office? I read about Kirkland and MoFo, although it sounds like MoFo's changing a bit. This summer has been great, but the firm that I'm working for requires associates to stay in the office late (until 9 or 10 pm) even when they don't have work to do or have work that they could do from home.

I have kids and would like to be able to leave at 6ish, have dinner, then log back in to work later.

I would appreciate any advice!

What city? O'Melveny in SF's a ghost town after 6 p.m. If you're talking about Kirkland and MoFo NY, then this gets a lot harder.

Reed Smith. No face time, and lower hours expectation for slightly lower pay.

Not based on personal knowledge, but I believe Patterson Belknap in NYC has a reputation for being a lifestyle firm.

OP here. Thanks for the responses! Would like to stay in Silicon Valley / SF or could take my family out to the east coast, we have some family in Philadelphia. Don't want NYC or DC if I can help it.

arklaw13 wrote:

DELG wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:

DELG wrote:Williams & Connolly

Flame or for real? That seems surprising.

I know someone who doesn't even live in DC

Wow. Are their billable requirements high? Doesn't seem like they'd be as bad as Wachtell/Cravath, or most NYC firms for that matter, since their PPP isn't that high.

My impression is that it's higher than other DC firms, lower than NYC V10 firms. PPP has a lot to do with leverage. WLRK is 2:1 and does a lot of premium fixed-fee M&A work. Cravath is 4:1. W&C is basically 1:1. Their RPL is comparable to Cravath's. Partly because they work a lot, but also because a higher percentage of their lawyers are partners, who bill higher than associates.

As for facetime, lots of firms don't put much into it, but it depends heavily on litigation versus corporate and your specific partner. DPW's litigation floors are sparse before 9am or after 7pm. Indeed, in DC and possibly in New York, most firms will have lots of people who leave at 6:30-7:30, have dinner, then log back on. I don't know about SF/SV generally, but I know DPW's SV office also isn't big on facetime.

Lacepiece23 wrote:Reed Smith. No face time, and lower hours expectation for slightly lower pay.

Speaking from personal experience, I think this would be a terrible reason to chose RS. I don't feel that hours expectations are any lower than other firms, and definitely not as a result of their lower pay structure. On the other hand, the firm wears its cheapness as some sort of badge of honor. Remember that it was one of the only firms to drop to $130,000 in major markets, and one of the few not to return to $160,000... and that's not even talking about other ways it cuts costs.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks for the responses! Would like to stay in Silicon Valley / SF or could take my family out to the east coast, we have some family in Philadelphia. Don't want NYC or DC if I can help it.

It would be something of a devil's bargain, but I know from personal experience that both Quinn SF and SV have zero face time requirements. Of course, the flipside is significantly higher hours expectations compared to other bay area offices, so for someone who already has kids it's probably not a good match; but if you're set on trying to stay in SF/SV it is an option.

From a summer at Debevoise, going home for dinner with family and then logging back on seems to be pretty well supported through the ranks, whether associate or partner.

Sidley NYC is pretty relaxed about it. My floor is nearly empty by 7 most nights.

Honestly your firm seems like an outlier. Very few firms have "face time" requirements that mean staying late for no reason. From personal experience and talking to others, even in NYC, most firms should be fine with you leaving at 6 or 7 if you've got nothing going on. In many cases, no one will bat an eye at taking off at like 4 if you're slow.

(This is from a lit perspective, corp might be more rigid because the work seems to require more in-office collaboration and comes up less predictably.)

Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone. Does anyone know of any firms that don't have face time requirements or that are pretty lax when it comes to actually being in the office? I read about Kirkland and MoFo, although it sounds like MoFo's changing a bit. This summer has been great, but the firm that I'm working for requires associates to stay in the office late (until 9 or 10 pm) even when they don't have work to do or have work that they could do from home.

I have kids and would like to be able to leave at 6ish, have dinner, then log back in to work later.

I would appreciate any advice!

What's your source for this? I'd be cautious about drawing an assumption based on one or two data points -- sometimes partners will ask very junior associates to remain in the office during high-intensity pushes because those junior associates have previously not been reliable when they go home. It's all about building trust; you should ask a senior associate at your firm about facetime, don't judge it off a grumbling junior associate you're eating lunch with.