Negotiate salary for first attorney job out of law school? Forum

[SDviaVA]

Should I try to negotiate my salary if I am offered my first attorney position?

I just finished a second round of interviews last week with a small law firm. I am expecting to hear if they are offering me the position this week.

I graduated law school in May 2013, passed the bar, and have been clerking for judge since last August.

[XxSpyKEx]

Should I try to negotiate my salary if I am offered my first attorney position?

I just finished a second round of interviews last week with a small law firm. I am expecting to hear if they are offering me the position this week.

I graduated law school in May 2013, passed the bar, and have been clerking for judge since last August.

Can't hurt to try at a small firm- it probably is negotiable to some extent.

[SDviaVA]

Should I try to negotiate my salary if I am offered my first attorney position?

I just finished a second round of interviews last week with a small law firm. I am expecting to hear if they are offering me the position this week.

I graduated law school in May 2013, passed the bar, and have been clerking for judge since last August.

Can't hurt to try at a small firm- it probably is negotiable to some extent.

I guess my only worry would be that they would retract the offer if I am too far above what they were hoping to pay someone in the position they have open. Does this ever happen? Also I don't want to start off the job on the wrong foot.

Does anyone have experience with this?

[John Everyman]

Should I try to negotiate my salary if I am offered my first attorney position?

I just finished a second round of interviews last week with a small law firm. I am expecting to hear if they are offering me the position this week.

I graduated law school in May 2013, passed the bar, and have been clerking for judge since last August.

Can't hurt to try at a small firm- it probably is negotiable to some extent.

I guess my only worry would be that they would retract the offer if I am too far above what they were hoping to pay someone in the position they have open. Does this ever happen? Also I don't want to start off the job on the wrong foot.

Does anyone have experience with this?

I'd imagine this is just like negotiating a starting salary at any company with limited resources. Just don't whip up something astronomical and you should be okay. I usually let them make the first offer (if I think I can trust them) and then ask for about 15-20% higher. But, take that with a grain of salt, it's always easier to go lower than it is to go higher.

[BigRob]

Make sure you base what you're asking for on something. Your plan should not be, "If they offer me $60k/yr., I will ask for $70k! If they offer me $90k, I will ask for $100k!"

Do research on what starting associates in the area (or field) make, find out what graduates from your law school make starting, etc., then mention that as your reason for requesting more. It would also be awesome if you could somehow find what other associates at that particular firm have been paid.

[XxSpyKEx]

Make sure you base what you're asking for on something. Your plan should not be, "If they offer me $60k/yr., I will ask for $70k! If they offer me $90k, I will ask for $100k!"

Do research on what starting associates in the area (or field) make, find out what graduates from your law school make starting, etc., then mention that as your reason for requesting more. It would also be awesome if you could somehow find what other associates at that particular firm have been paid.

This. Also, your current salary is fair game to throw in as that something (assuming they offer you less than what you're making as a clerk).

[SDviaVA]

Make sure you base what you're asking for on something. Your plan should not be, "If they offer me $60k/yr., I will ask for $70k! If they offer me $90k, I will ask for $100k!"

Do research on what starting associates in the area (or field) make, find out what graduates from your law school make starting, etc., then mention that as your reason for requesting more. It would also be awesome if you could somehow find what other associates at that particular firm have been paid.

This. Also, your current salary is fair game to throw in as that something (assuming they offer you less than what you're making as a clerk).

Well I get paid 43K a year as a judicial law clerk so I sure hope its more then that!

[SDviaVA]

Make sure you base what you're asking for on something. Your plan should not be, "If they offer me $60k/yr., I will ask for $70k! If they offer me $90k, I will ask for $100k!"

Do research on what starting associates in the area (or field) make, find out what graduates from your law school make starting, etc., then mention that as your reason for requesting more. It would also be awesome if you could somehow find what other associates at that particular firm have been paid.

Good point. Any reliable resources for finding out such salary numbers?

I have my law school's salary numbers, but given the amount of manipulation that seems to be going on by law schools and their jobs information, I'm not sure I can trust it.

[smallfirmassociate]

My strategy was to take what was offered with the intent of seeking a large raise later. My salary in year one was low enough that I felt no pressure to have to build my book of business overnight and bill 1600+ hours that year, so it was a blessing.

I was pretty profitable in my first year and asked for (and received) a large raise heading into year two, after I'd shown my value. I believe that my year two salary was what it would have been even had I started higher in year one. I just got a nice year three raise as well. Ultimately, I ate one year of marginally lower salary to build a nice rapport with the partners and come across as a true team player or whatever. This strategy worked for me (and I'm on pace to make partner soon), but every small firm is different.

[JCougar]

Make sure you base what you're asking for on something. Your plan should not be, "If they offer me $60k/yr., I will ask for $70k! If they offer me $90k, I will ask for $100k!"

Do research on what starting associates in the area (or field) make, find out what graduates from your law school make starting, etc., then mention that as your reason for requesting more. It would also be awesome if you could somehow find what other associates at that particular firm have been paid.

This.

Look at what similar firms in the area pay in the same practice area. Figure out if you have past experience that makes you worth more than the average applicant. Have some basis to negotiate.

You want to be careful, as this is your first job, but (if there's any litigation, at least) negotiating is eventually going to be part of your job. So do it right. The best negotiators are prepared and have data to back their case up--and don't try to "move the Overton window" just for the sake of being adversarial. It doesn't take a ton of research to do this.

[SDviaVA]

Make sure you base what you're asking for on something. Your plan should not be, "If they offer me $60k/yr., I will ask for $70k! If they offer me $90k, I will ask for $100k!"

Do research on what starting associates in the area (or field) make, find out what graduates from your law school make starting, etc., then mention that as your reason for requesting more. It would also be awesome if you could somehow find what other associates at that particular firm have been paid.

This.

Look at what similar firms in the area pay in the same practice area. Figure out if you have past experience that makes you worth more than the average applicant. Have some basis to negotiate.

You want to be careful, as this is your first job, but (if there's any litigation, at least) negotiating is eventually going to be part of your job. So do it right. The best negotiators are prepared and have data to back their case up--and don't try to "move the Overton window" just for the sake of being adversarial. It doesn't take a ton of research to do this.

Can anyone recommend any good websites to research salaries. The only ones I know of are Salary.com and Payscale.com?

[JCougar]

Can anyone recommend any good websites to research salaries. The only ones I know of are Salary.com and Payscale.com?

I don't know if either of those sites are reliable.

I would suggest looking at other job openings in your area and seeing if they list a starting pay range, or just asking any networking connections you know in that area what a general pay range for that type of firm is. There's no site like NALP that lists associate salaries for small firms, so it might be difficult. But it's usually between $40K and $60K, unless it's more of a boutique, and than it could be anywhere from $40K up to like $80K or (very unlikely, but still possible, depending on the practice area) beyond.

[XxSpyKEx]

But it's usually between $40K and $60K, unless it's more of a boutique, and than it could be anywhere from $40K up to like $80K or (very unlikely, but still possible, depending on the practice area) beyond.

There are definitely a number of boutiques that pay more than $80k /year in major markets. Practice areas (that the firm actually has business in) and clients tend to be a decent indicator of what the firms are likely billing their clients (and, hence, what they might be able to pay you). For example, firms that practice in commercial litigation representing major corporations (typically biglaw partners who started a spinoff) typically will pay market. Bob Johnson's personal injury firm, on the other hand, might pay closer $40k for a 1st year associate.

EDIT- I'm just throwing this out there as information for the OP, not as a "reply" to your post JCougar

Also, I've seen some decent salary guides by Robert Half Legal. They are very rough estimates of what the ranges are for different firm sizes in different cities, but it's at least a starting point.

[sconnielaw13]

Billing rate x billable hours divided by 3 equals about what you should expect your starting salary to be. So if you are billing at 150 per hour and have a 1500 hour requirement then $75,000. This is not perfect, but it gives you a good ball park figure. For the above example, anything north of $65,000 is probably fair.

[SDviaVA]

Billing rate x billable hours divided by 3 equals about what you should expect your starting salary to be. So if you are billing at 150 per hour and have a 1500 hour requirement then $75,000. This is not perfect, but it gives you a good ball park figure. For the above example, anything north of $65,000 is probably fair.

Well the problem is that I cant really ask the firm for their billable hour rate at this point, nor do I have any previous legal experience that required billable hours that I could base my salary requirements on.

[SDviaVA]

But it's usually between $40K and $60K, unless it's more of a boutique, and than it could be anywhere from $40K up to like $80K or (very unlikely, but still possible, depending on the practice area) beyond.

There are definitely a number of boutiques that pay more than $80k /year in major markets. Practice areas (that the firm actually has business in) and clients tend to be a decent indicator of what the firms are likely billing their clients (and, hence, what they might be able to pay you). For example, firms that practice in commercial litigation representing major corporations (typically biglaw partners who started a spinoff) typically will pay market. Bob Johnson's personal injury firm, on the other hand, might pay closer $40k for a 1st year associate.

EDIT- I'm just throwing this out there as information for the OP, not as a "reply" to your post JCougar

Also, I've seen some decent salary guides by Robert Half Legal. They are very rough estimates of what the ranges are for different firm sizes in different cities, but it's at least a starting point.

The Robert Half Legal website is a great resource!

[XxSpyKEx]

Billing rate x billable hours divided by 3 equals about what you should expect your starting salary to be. So if you are billing at 150 per hour and have a 1500 hour requirement then $75,000. This is not perfect, but it gives you a good ball park figure. For the above example, anything north of $65,000 is probably fair.

Billable rates can be different for different clients (based on what the partners can get from them), so what you bill could be dependent on what partners you wind up working for. Also, most firms probably pay less than 1/3 of what the attorneys bill for 1st year associates. (Big law pays less than a 1/3.)