firms in terms of grade selectivity Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anon responding. Yeah, I understand your rationale, just surprised because there are firms out there known for being more selective than S&C at CCN and below. Maybe they're more lenient at H...I dunno. The ones I'm talking about are Wachtell, WilCo, Munger. At my school typically 1-2 get those firms, and not every year. But there are many more at S&C, and the GPAs of those offerees were for sure lower.

I think the disconnect is because S&C's cutoffs do not drop as much across tiers of schools as other firms do. This is a completely false hypothetical, but imagine MTO requires top 1% from MVP, top 5% from CCN and top 20% from HYS, while S&C requires top 15% from MVPCCNHYS. UPenn kid thinks MTO >> S&C (as far as selectivity) and HLS kid thinks S&C > MTO, and they're both right.

Anon responding. Probably a function of year to year differences then as well, since at my school it was top 25-30% cutoff for S&C. If 25% or so was the cutoff across T14, that would mean that the decision making process was much more arbitrary than I thought--behavioral based. That seems off, no?

[Tiago Splitter]

Cravath is definitely attainable at median from T6. I got an offer as T10 median.

The general impression is correct that S&C is more willing to take top 5% at a T50 than median at CCN, but aside from that, all these firms will go to median, sometimes below, to get summer associates. They couldn't fill their classes otherwise. They don't take everyone at median or above, but your interview will matter much more than your grades at that point.

Neither Cravath nor S&C is attainable from median in any meaningful sense from Columbia. Each has offered one student below a 3.41 in each of the last two years. Median is around 3.3. Don't have info for other schools.

[2014]

Interesting. We don't have hard data for S&C but some of the other firms being thrown around ITT as similarly selective have given callbacks to people at or below median. Obviously these people could be outliers, but the point is it's possible.

OCS says you should have a 178 for S&C but I don't know if that is worth anything since that is their general number for all selective firms (they cite LR for super selective firms like Wachtell).

When the sheet w/ GPA minimums comes out if it hasn't already you will see 178 is neither sufficient nor necessary for S&C. It is probably a product of not many Chicago kids gunning NY and no one actually understanding what median is, but again, I think they are worth a bid at 177 (which is almost surely below median).

I understand the difference at CLS, NYU and H though since far more of those schools targets NY and S&C/like firms can afford to be a little more selective. It's the exact same at Chicago firms for us. Places you can comfortably target at median or below from H or CLS or w/e seem to push for top 1/3 from UChi because they can.

[rayiner]

I've heard CSM is not unattainable from median at U of Chicago. I assumed Columbia would be similar, but 2014's comment about geography and competition and grading scale confusion makes sense. I've heard K&E and Sidley are more selective at U of Chicago than one would think.

[Anonymous User]

Figured this could use an update with more current data. At my HYS for NY/DC:

Very Grade Selective:
Williams & Connolly
Wachtell
Boies Schiller
Wilmer DC
Gibson DC

Somewhat Grade Selective
Sullivan & Cromwell
Covington DC

Cravath (in between)

Not That Grade Selective
Latham
Gibson NY
Wilmer Hale
Paul Weiss
Debevoise
Quinn Emanuel

Not at all Grade Selective
Simpson Thacher
Davis Polk
Cleary
Kirkland

Grades?
Skadden
Hogan
Milbank
Ropes & Gray
Weil
Sidley Austin
Jones Day

[QContinuum]

Figured this could use an update with more current data. At my HYS for NY/DC:

I assume Covington's "Somewhat Grade Selective" status is based on Cov D.C., and not Cov N.Y.?

[Anonymous User]

Correct. I should have specified.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I get that you're restricting experiences to your HYS, and just carrying over the same format people were previously using, but calling STB/DPW "not at all selective" when it's not common for them to dip even to median anywhere else seems unproductive (and I wouldn't really consider them less selective than any you listed in the tier above anyway). They are sufficiently selective that a majority of T14 students wouldn't have a real shot at them.

In general the preceding discussion seems mostly unhelpful. Lot of blathering keystrokes on firms above the S&C/Cravath level of selectivity--boutiques, appellate practices, whatever--who hire maybe 100 kids a year all put together? By definition, even most T14 students are gonna go to firms that aren't all that selective. This whole thread started with some prestige-whoring kid at median. Even in Biglaw, hiring standards will run the gamut to "regularly hires Fordham medians."

[Anonymous User]

Still pretty much true?

[aegor]

Still pretty much true?

No.

[Anonymous User]

Is there interest in an updated list based on data from my CYS? Can get to it when I'm procrastinating

[Anonymous User]

Is there interest in an updated list based on data from my CYS? Can get to it when I'm procrastinating

Lol took me a while to figure out what CYS meant. Sounds like Animal Farm gone wrong.

[Anonymous User]

Is there interest in an updated list based on data from my CYS? Can get to it when I'm procrastinating

Yes, I'm interested.

[Anonymous User]

Still pretty much true?

No.

How's it different then

[Anonymous User]

Is there interest in an updated list based on data from my CYS? Can get to it when I'm procrastinating

Yes, I'm interested.

Not CYS anon, but at S, if memory serves, S&C was as selective as GDC and DPW, more selective than Cravath, much more selective than Skadden, with WLRK/MTO/boutiques being a whole different level of selectiveness from GDC/DPW/S&C.

Edited to add: as in grade selective, and talking all NY here (except MTO and boutiques).

[Anonymous User]

Still pretty much true?

More or less, probably.

[Anonymous User]

Totally unhelpful thread. "My HYS" = LOL because those schools barely have grades anyway. Putting Skadden and Weil in the "least selective" category is, again, totally unhelpful to the average T14 student heading into OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Can we get an LA selectivity chart

[Anonymous User]

Figured this could use an update with more current data. At my HYS for NY/DC:

Very Grade Selective:
Williams & Connolly
Wachtell
Boies Schiller
Wilmer DC
Gibson DC

Somewhat Grade Selective
Sullivan & Cromwell
Covington DC

Cravath (in between)

Not That Grade Selective
Latham
Gibson NY
Wilmer Hale
Paul Weiss
Debevoise
Quinn Emanuel

Not at all Grade Selective
Simpson Thacher
Davis Polk
Cleary
Kirkland

Grades?
Skadden
Hogan
Milbank
Ropes & Gray
Weil
Sidley Austin
Jones Day

I dare you to update this with the number of SAs per firm and the firm median GPA.

[Anonymous User]

Totally unhelpful thread. "My HYS" = LOL because those schools barely have grades anyway. Putting Skadden and Weil in the "least selective" category is, again, totally unhelpful to the average T14 student heading into OCI.

Why? You know whether you're going to waste your bids and it's all relatively speaking.

[Hog]

Can we get an LA selectivity chart

Bump

[Anonymous User]

Can we get an LA selectivity chart

Bump

Susman > Munger = Hueston Hennigan > GDC > Irell (unsure here tbh) > Latham > everyone else, by my bay area understanding

[Anonymous User]

Can we get an LA selectivity chart

Bump

Susman > Munger = Hueston Hennigan > GDC > Irell (unsure here tbh) > Latham > everyone else, by my bay area understanding

HH is not equal to Munger.

[Anonymous User]

Figured this could use an update with more current data. At my HYS for NY/DC:

Very Grade Selective:
Williams & Connolly
Wachtell
Boies Schiller
Wilmer DC
Gibson DC

Somewhat Grade Selective
Sullivan & Cromwell
Covington DC

Cravath (in between)

Not That Grade Selective
Latham
Gibson NY
Wilmer Hale
Paul Weiss
Debevoise
Quinn Emanuel

Not at all Grade Selective
Simpson Thacher
Davis Polk
Cleary
Kirkland

Grades?
Skadden
Hogan
Milbank
Ropes & Gray
Weil
Sidley Austin
Jones Day

I dare you to update this with the number of SAs per firm and the firm median GPA.

Well one obvious update would be that BSF can no longer afford to be grade selective at all, no less grade selective at HYS. Otherwise a decent list.

[Anonymous User]

Can we get an LA selectivity chart

Bump

Susman > Munger = Hueston Hennigan > GDC > Irell (unsure here tbh) > Latham > everyone else, by my bay area understanding

HH is not equal to Munger.

True, its way better to work at HH than Munger. As the many former Munger summers/associates who now work at HH can testify.