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Posted: **Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:40 pm**

So I keep hearing this like "Akin, Chadbourne, Paul hastings, Orrick, OMM all have huge class sizes". However, when I look them up (for NY), they're all within 11-16 range (big but not as big as Latham's or White & Case, which are double or triple).

Is the nalp info wrong? These are all for class sizes for 2014. I guess Akin went from 43 to 17 to 11 but other places are still around 10-11

For example:

wiseowl wrote:As another source, here are the Chambers numbers firmwide, not just NY (and there are some other discrepancies as well; NALP is probably more accurate)

I'll list the V30 in the same order OP did, then go alphabetical for whatever else was in the Chambers book

1) Wachtell - Did not respond
2) Cravath - 22-25
3) Skadden - 76
4) S&C - 78
5) Davis Polk - 81
6) Weil Gotshal - 40
7) Simpson - 71
8.) Cleary - 76
9) Covington - ~72
10) Kirkland - 64
11) Williams & Connolly - 21
12) Debevoise - Did not respond
13) Paul Weiss - ~80
14) Gibson - 109
15) Sidley - 51
16) WilmerHale - Did not respond
17) Latham - 110
18) Arnold & Porter - Did not respond
19) Jones Day - 121
20) White & Case - Did not respond
21) Shearman - 28
22) OMM - 56-60
23) Quinn - 27
24) Ropes - 76
25) Hogan - Did not respond
26) Clifford Chance - 10
27) MoFo - ~60
28) Mayer - 36-40
29) Linklaters - 23
30) Boies - 18

Akin Gump - 34
Allen & Overy - 15
Alston & Bird - 30-32
Andrews Kurth - 16
Baker & Daniels - 12-18
Baker & McKenzie - 24
Baker Botts - 62-65
Ballard Spahr - 2
Bingham McCutcheon - 43
Bracewell & Giuliani - 50-55
Brownstein Hyatt - 8
Buchanan Ingersoll - 3
Cadwalader - 31
Cahill - 16
Chadbourne & Parke - 15-20
Choate Hall - 0
Cooley - 22
Crowell & Moring - 22
Dechert - 35
Dewey & LeBoeuf - 46
Dickstein Shapiro - 16
DLA Piper - 35
Dorsey & Whitney - ~15
Duane Morris - 8-10
Faegre - 23
Finnegan - 20-21
Fitzpatrick Cella - 22
Foley & Lardner - 35
Freshfields - 17
Fried Frank - 45
Fulbright - 57-60
Gibbons - 0
Haynes & Boone - 41
Holland & Hart - 6
Holme Roberts - 2
Hunton & Williams - 10
Irell - 37
Jackson Walker - 18
K&L Gates - Did not respond
Katten Muchin - 9
Kaye Scholer - 11
Kramer Levin - 19
Linklaters - 23
McCarter & English - 0
McDermott Will - 33
McGuireWoods - 11
McKenna Long - 22
Munger Tolles - 18-20
Nixon Peabody - 30-31
Orrick - 31
Patterson Belknap - 9
Patton Boggs - 21
Paul Hastings - ~90
Perkins Coie - ~30
Pillsbury - 17
Proskauer - 36
Reed Smith - 21
Schiff Hardin - 13
Shook Hardy - 10
Sidley - 51
Snell & Wilmer - 19
Steptoe - 14
Stroock - 16
Sullivan & Worcester - 6
Troutman Sanders - 21
Vinson & Elkins - 100
Wiley Rein - 13
Williams Mullen - 15
Wilkie Farr - 18
Wilson Sonsini - 44
Winston & Strawn - 43

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=118269

I know this was pre-ITE but there is a huge disprepency between this dta and Nalp. For example, Vinson is at 100 here but nalp shows 2 to 6 for the past 3 years.

Any other resources for finding class sizes?

Posted: **Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:46 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:So I keep hearing this like "Akin, Chadbourne, Paul hastings, Orrick, OMM all have huge class sizes". However, when I look them up (for NY), they're all within 11-16 range (big but not as big as Latham's or White & Case, which are double or triple).

Is the nalp info wrong? These are all for class sizes for 2014. I guess Akin went from 43 to 17 to 11 but other places are still around 10-11

For example:
wiseowl wrote:As another source, here are the Chambers numbers firmwide, not just NY (and there are some other discrepancies as well; NALP is probably more accurate)

I'll list the V30 in the same order OP did, then go alphabetical for whatever else was in the Chambers book

1) Wachtell - Did not respond
2) Cravath - 22-25
3) Skadden - 76
4) S&C - 78
5) Davis Polk - 81
6) Weil Gotshal - 40
7) Simpson - 71
8.) Cleary - 76
9) Covington - ~72
10) Kirkland - 64
11) Williams & Connolly - 21
12) Debevoise - Did not respond
13) Paul Weiss - ~80
14) Gibson - 109
15) Sidley - 51
16) WilmerHale - Did not respond
17) Latham - 110
18) Arnold & Porter - Did not respond
19) Jones Day - 121
20) White & Case - Did not respond
21) Shearman - 28
22) OMM - 56-60
23) Quinn - 27
24) Ropes - 76
25) Hogan - Did not respond
26) Clifford Chance - 10
27) MoFo - ~60
28) Mayer - 36-40
29) Linklaters - 23
30) Boies - 18

Akin Gump - 34
Allen & Overy - 15
Alston & Bird - 30-32
Andrews Kurth - 16
Baker & Daniels - 12-18
Baker & McKenzie - 24
Baker Botts - 62-65
Ballard Spahr - 2
Bingham McCutcheon - 43
Bracewell & Giuliani - 50-55
Brownstein Hyatt - 8
Buchanan Ingersoll - 3
Cadwalader - 31
Cahill - 16
Chadbourne & Parke - 15-20
Choate Hall - 0
Cooley - 22
Crowell & Moring - 22
Dechert - 35
Dewey & LeBoeuf - 46
Dickstein Shapiro - 16
DLA Piper - 35
Dorsey & Whitney - ~15
Duane Morris - 8-10
Faegre - 23
Finnegan - 20-21
Fitzpatrick Cella - 22
Foley & Lardner - 35
Freshfields - 17
Fried Frank - 45
Fulbright - 57-60
Gibbons - 0
Haynes & Boone - 41
Holland & Hart - 6
Holme Roberts - 2
Hunton & Williams - 10
Irell - 37
Jackson Walker - 18
K&L Gates - Did not respond
Katten Muchin - 9
Kaye Scholer - 11
Kramer Levin - 19
Linklaters - 23
McCarter & English - 0
McDermott Will - 33
McGuireWoods - 11
McKenna Long - 22
Munger Tolles - 18-20
Nixon Peabody - 30-31
Orrick - 31
Patterson Belknap - 9
Patton Boggs - 21
Paul Hastings - ~90
Perkins Coie - ~30
Pillsbury - 17
Proskauer - 36
Reed Smith - 21
Schiff Hardin - 13
Shook Hardy - 10
Sidley - 51
Snell & Wilmer - 19
Steptoe - 14
Stroock - 16
Sullivan & Worcester - 6
Troutman Sanders - 21
Vinson & Elkins - 100
Wiley Rein - 13
Williams Mullen - 15
Wilkie Farr - 18
Wilson Sonsini - 44
Winston & Strawn - 43
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=118269

I know this was pre-ITE but there is a huge disprepency between this dta and Nalp. For example, Vinson is at 100 here but nalp shows 2 to 6 for the past 3 years.

Any other resources for finding class sizes?

not sure if youre talking about the discrepancy bt the list here and the tls link you posted underneath, but if that's the case - the link leads to a list specifically for NYC stats where as these here are firmwide. ignore if that's not the discrep you were referring to

Posted: **Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:54 pm**

There are some discrepancies because the NALP numbers are reported earlier than some other sources, and thus NALP is reported as "expected" (estimates) while the others(Chambers Associates, for example) are reported after hiring is completed and so you get the actual number.

It's also important to note that the Chambers numbers are for the WHOLE FIRM, and that, in recent years, hiring in NY may actually be smaller than hiring in other markets. It's also important to note that the numbers reported to Chambers and to NALP include 1Ls, so the number of 2L slots may be smaller than the whole.

As an example, looking at the NALP numbers for Akin Gump:

Dallas - 10
Houston - 7
LA - 6
NY - 13
Philly - 0
DC - 15

Total = 10 + 7 + 6 + 13 + 0 + 15 = 51

So, when they reported to NALP, they estimated that they would take on 51 summers in 2014. When they reported to Chambers Associate, they had actually taken on 54 in 2014 ( http://www.chambersassociate.com/Pdfs/A ... s_size.pdf ). This is down significantly from the 73 they took in 2009, but also up significantly from the 34 they took in 2010 (and if you look at the Chambers chart, which includes data from 2009-2014, this pattern of lower-than-2009-but-higher-than-2010 holds for most firms).

This is also particularly instructive because looking at an estimated class size of 51 and seeing only 13 in NY may give pause, but we see that 17 were taken in Texas markets - and strong hiring in Texas has been a trend recently.

Overall, the NALP numbers seem *reasonably* accurate, in that they are a good ballpark, but they're not 100% accurate because they are estimates at the time they are reported.

Posted: **Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:34 pm**

OP Here

That is the discrepancy I'm talking about. I'm curious though. A lot of advice on TLS is to bid on firms with large class size. However, they don't take into account the class size of the office. For example, common advice on many threads for those who go to NYU/Columbia and want to bid on large class size is to bid on Paul Hastings. But if you look at their size, they might have a large class size but their NY office summer class is only 16.

Would it make sense to look at the class size of the office you're looking at ONLY or does the overall class size factor in somehow (selectivity, etc.?)? Just making sure because the advice here seems to hint at looking at overall class size... which doesn't make sense

Posted: **Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:32 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:OP Here

That is the discrepancy I'm talking about. I'm curious though. A lot of advice on TLS is to bid on firms with large class size. However, they don't take into account the class size of the office. For example, common advice on many threads for those who go to NYU/Columbia and want to bid on large class size is to bid on Paul Hastings. But if you look at their size, they might have a large class size but their NY office summer class is only 16.

Would it make sense to look at the class size of the office you're looking at ONLY or does the overall class size factor in somehow (selectivity, etc.?)? Just making sure because the advice here seems to hint at looking at overall class size... which doesn't make sense

my guess based on logic/common sense (which i admit doesn't always lead you to a conclusion congruent with how the legal profession actually operates) would be that only the office you're applying to matters

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