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What's the NYC market bonus? What's above-market? What firms generally pay above market bonuses? Are these above market bonuses strongly correlated with billable hours in excess of 2000? Ty

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/breaking ... son-begin/

That is market

Firms that pay above market bonuses are Wachtell, Boies, Susman, Cahill Gordon (pays a mid year bonus). None of those are contingent on a billable minimum as far as I know but you realistically won't have a job for long at any if you don't hit 2k. A few other firms have black box bonuses so they are perhaps higher (Jones Day) but are assumed to be lower. There are a few where the majority of associates get paid market but low billers get paid less, and the highest billers get paid marginally more (Kirkland, Quinn). Finally there are a few where you can expect Cravath but they have some discretionary component to give you more, like K&E/Quinn but less formulaic. I can't remember which firms these are, there are a few though if you search bonuses on ATL. Pretty sure none are in the V30 or so.

2014 wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/breaking ... son-begin/

That is market

Firms that pay above market bonuses are Wachtell, Boies, Susman, Cahill Gordon (pays a mid year bonus). None of those are contingent on a billable minimum as far as I know but you realistically won't have a job for long at any if you don't hit 2k. A few other firms have black box bonuses so they are perhaps higher (Jones Day) but are assumed to be lower. There are a few where the majority of associates get paid market but low billers get paid less, and the highest billers get paid marginally more (Kirkland, Quinn). Finally there are a few where you can expect Cravath but they have some discretionary component to give you more, like K&E/Quinn but less formulaic. I can't remember which firms these are, there are a few though if you search bonuses on ATL. Pretty sure none are in the V30 or so.

Thx. I thought Cravath was ahead of the curve on this one..

Anonymous User wrote:

2014 wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/breaking ... son-begin/

That is market

Firms that pay above market bonuses are Wachtell, Boies, Susman, Cahill Gordon (pays a mid year bonus). None of those are contingent on a billable minimum as far as I know but you realistically won't have a job for long at any if you don't hit 2k. A few other firms have black box bonuses so they are perhaps higher (Jones Day) but are assumed to be lower. There are a few where the majority of associates get paid market but low billers get paid less, and the highest billers get paid marginally more (Kirkland, Quinn). Finally there are a few where you can expect Cravath but they have some discretionary component to give you more, like K&E/Quinn but less formulaic. I can't remember which firms these are, there are a few though if you search bonuses on ATL. Pretty sure none are in the V30 or so.

Thx. I thought Cravath was ahead of the curve on this one..

Cravath usually is the curve.

Cravath sets the curve and most firms fall into line.

Quinn and Kirkland aren't "marginally" better bonuses-- they're often significantly better. Kirkland will usually pay between 1.5x-3x Cravath, with top rated associates in each year making somewhere in the 4-5x range. Quinn is a little less structured, but pays a multiple of Cravath to top associates, particularly if they were working on successful litigation matters.

Wachtell, Boies, Susman are in a different world, although they have a lot of non-traditional associates and so often their numbers seem bizarrely high. E.g., I think either Boies or Susman last year paid a 3rd year associate a six figure bonus, but it turned out it was because he had brought a profitable client with him to the firm.

IIRC KE and Quinn seldom pay more than 2x cravath. And getting to 2x cravath entails such a ridiculous amount of extra hours that you'd have actually-literally-been better off just hitting the billable minimum and then spending the hours you would've spent chasing the bigger bonuses doing min-wage work at mcdonalds instead. Not an exaggeration.

daleearnhardt123 wrote:IIRC KE and Quinn seldom pay more than 2x cravath. And getting to 2x cravath entails such a ridiculous amount of extra hours that you'd have actually-literally-been better off just hitting the billable minimum and then spending the hours you would've spent chasing the bigger bonuses doing min-wage work at mcdonalds instead. Not an exaggeration.

Kirkland seems to 1.5X Cravath almost as a standard.

Quinn doesn't even match 1X Cravath until you hit 2100. You get an extra 3.5-5k for billing 2400. And an extra 5k for biling 2700. That's pretty pathetic. They never pay 2X Cravath. And you only 1.5X Cravath when you are a first or second year who bill 2700 hours.

IMO Quinn is basically below market.

Desert Fox wrote:

daleearnhardt123 wrote:IIRC KE and Quinn seldom pay more than 2x cravath. And getting to 2x cravath entails such a ridiculous amount of extra hours that you'd have actually-literally-been better off just hitting the billable minimum and then spending the hours you would've spent chasing the bigger bonuses doing min-wage work at mcdonalds instead. Not an exaggeration.

Kirkland seems to 1.5X Cravath almost as a standard.

Quinn doesn't even match 1X Cravath until you hit 2100. You get an extra 3.5-5k for billing 2400. And an extra 5k for biling 2700. That's pretty pathetic. They never pay 2X Cravath. And you only 1.5X Cravath when you are a first or second year who bill 2700 hours.

IMO Quinn is basically below market.

So basically they pay you an extra $16.67 for every hour you work above 2,100 as long as you work up to 2,400 or 2,700. That seems...not so great.

M458 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

daleearnhardt123 wrote:IIRC KE and Quinn seldom pay more than 2x cravath. And getting to 2x cravath entails such a ridiculous amount of extra hours that you'd have actually-literally-been better off just hitting the billable minimum and then spending the hours you would've spent chasing the bigger bonuses doing min-wage work at mcdonalds instead. Not an exaggeration.

Kirkland seems to 1.5X Cravath almost as a standard.

Quinn doesn't even match 1X Cravath until you hit 2100. You get an extra 3.5-5k for billing 2400. And an extra 5k for biling 2700. That's pretty pathetic. They never pay 2X Cravath. And you only 1.5X Cravath when you are a first or second year who bill 2700 hours.

IMO Quinn is basically below market.

So basically they pay you an extra $16.67 for every hour you work above 2,100 as long as you work up to 2,400 or 2,700. That seems...not so great.

It's not, but I guess the thinking goes that if you're working those same hours across the board (as you probably will for most v100 firms in NYC, some more than others), might as well get the marginal boost. It's not like the hours at K&E are worse than those at Cravath/S&C/Skadden/etc.

K&E is definitely above market.

Quinn is below market until 2100, at market until 2400, and slightly above market after 2400.

M458 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

daleearnhardt123 wrote:IIRC KE and Quinn seldom pay more than 2x cravath. And getting to 2x cravath entails such a ridiculous amount of extra hours that you'd have actually-literally-been better off just hitting the billable minimum and then spending the hours you would've spent chasing the bigger bonuses doing min-wage work at mcdonalds instead. Not an exaggeration.

Kirkland seems to 1.5X Cravath almost as a standard.

Quinn doesn't even match 1X Cravath until you hit 2100. You get an extra 3.5-5k for billing 2400. And an extra 5k for biling 2700. That's pretty pathetic. They never pay 2X Cravath. And you only 1.5X Cravath when you are a first or second year who bill 2700 hours.

IMO Quinn is basically below market.

So basically they pay you an extra $16.67 for every hour you work above 2,100 as long as you work up to 2,400 or 2,700. That seems...not so great.

Check your math, you're way off. And remember these are BILLABLES. Hours worked is much greater. It's sub-min wage.

daleearnhardt123 wrote:

M458 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

daleearnhardt123 wrote:IIRC KE and Quinn seldom pay more than 2x cravath. And getting to 2x cravath entails such a ridiculous amount of extra hours that you'd have actually-literally-been better off just hitting the billable minimum and then spending the hours you would've spent chasing the bigger bonuses doing min-wage work at mcdonalds instead. Not an exaggeration.

Kirkland seems to 1.5X Cravath almost as a standard.

Quinn doesn't even match 1X Cravath until you hit 2100. You get an extra 3.5-5k for billing 2400. And an extra 5k for biling 2700. That's pretty pathetic. They never pay 2X Cravath. And you only 1.5X Cravath when you are a first or second year who bill 2700 hours.

IMO Quinn is basically below market.

So basically they pay you an extra $16.67 for every hour you work above 2,100 as long as you work up to 2,400 or 2,700. That seems...not so great.

Check your math, you're way off. And remember these are BILLABLES. Hours worked is much greater. It's sub-min wage.

TBF, marginal hours after 2000 are much more efficient.

Desert Fox wrote: TBF, marginal hours after 2000 are much more efficient.

Out of curiosity, if you say the average K&E/Cravath/Vxx associate works around 2,500 billable hours, what would you say that translates to in terms of hours worked?

hellojd wrote:

Desert Fox wrote: TBF, marginal hours after 2000 are much more efficient.

Out of curiosity, if you say the average K&E/Cravath/Vxx associate works around 2,500 billable hours, what would you say that translates to in terms of hours worked?

http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... lehour.htm

hellojd wrote:

Desert Fox wrote: TBF, marginal hours after 2000 are much more efficient.

Out of curiosity, if you say the average K&E/Cravath/Vxx associate works around 2,500 billable hours, what would you say that translates to in terms of hours worked?

I kind of doubt the average V10 associate bills 2500. I know at my V38 median has gotta be MAYBE 2100. Average probably less.

cusenation wrote:

hellojd wrote:

Desert Fox wrote: TBF, marginal hours after 2000 are much more efficient.

Out of curiosity, if you say the average K&E/Cravath/Vxx associate works around 2,500 billable hours, what would you say that translates to in terms of hours worked?

http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... lehour.htm

Very interesting, thanks

Desert Fox wrote:

hellojd wrote:

Desert Fox wrote: TBF, marginal hours after 2000 are much more efficient.

Out of curiosity, if you say the average K&E/Cravath/Vxx associate works around 2,500 billable hours, what would you say that translates to in terms of hours worked?

I kind of doubt the average V10 associate bills 2500. I know at my V38 median has gotta be MAYBE 2100. Average probably less.

Yeah I figured the typical Vxx associate is closer to the figure you mentioned. Isn't the figure thrown around for some of the sweatier-than-normal sweatshops like Cravath and K&E in particular said to be around 24-2500?

some firms will pay you token $2000-5000 bonus above cravath scale standard bonus for random shit too like billing in a timely manner, meeting some pro bono threshold, and other merit measures.

you might also take a hit to your bonus if your hours sink below 1900

I think a lot of firms set an hourly requirement for bonus.

Desert Fox wrote:I think a lot of firms set an hourly requirement for bonus.

and when work was low/drying up depending on practice group I also imagine a decent % of associates couldn't meet that threshold

jbagelboy wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:I think a lot of firms set an hourly requirement for bonus.

and when work was low/drying up depending on practice group I also imagine a decent % of associates couldn't meet that threshold

Now a lot of associate can't really meet it. Hitting 2000 is hard.

Desert Fox wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:I think a lot of firms set an hourly requirement for bonus.

and when work was low/drying up depending on practice group I also imagine a decent % of associates couldn't meet that threshold

Now a lot of associate can't really meet it. Hitting 2000 is hard.

Hmm. What % of associates are getting cock-blocked out of bonuses at most firms then would you say?

The hours/bonus relationship varies dramatically. My firm (top NYC) is truly lockstep - everyone gets a bonus based on nothing but class year, no hours requirements. Many/most "top" NYC firms do bonuses that way, but are also leanly staffed and busy, so not many people are on the low end of the hours spectrum.

Another thing to watch out for is timing: my firm's bonus comes in the December paycheck, some firms do bonuses a few months into the new year, etc.

Desert Fox wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:I think a lot of firms set an hourly requirement for bonus.

and when work was low/drying up depending on practice group I also imagine a decent % of associates couldn't meet that threshold

Now a lot of associate can't really meet it. Hitting 2000 is hard.

Do you think that statement applies to NY corp or are you referring mainly to DC/IP stuff

FWIW, Quinn gives a substantial profit sharing 401K contribution at the end of the year, on top of their bonuses. Don't think there is an hours requirement for it