Dealing with Communication Problem at Work Forum

[rouser]

I've been having some issues w/ one particular attorney at my summer job. He generally likes to talk on the phone while giving instructions on assignments which I'm fine with. The issue is that he's been getting pretty pissed about having to tell me something more than once or having to clarify certain instructions. I like the work itself--it's contract drafting and modification (long and complicated contracts). The problem I think is that this attorney is dealing with an inexperienced 3L who (i'll admit) is a bit slow when it comes to complicated business transactions and the lingo involved in this stuff. He treats me as if I understand a lot more than I do about these deals. Going through a long and complicated contract to tie up loose ends and modify certain sections is something that takes a lot of time for me, and I like to be clear on just about everything I'm told to do. Again the issue is that this attorney is getting really frustrated when we have a miscommunication or when I need to be told something more than once (not in writing...he talks on the phone while I take notes). I'm just wondering how the hell I can improve my situation because this guy, whether I like it or not, is doing the front-end stuff (as opposed to litigation) which is what I'm truly interested in--so I need to make our relationship work.

[minnbills]

What kind of work are you doing on these contracts?

I'm doing some contract drafting right now and it is mostly inputting the relevant info and cleaning up the contract (I can't believe how bad the templates are). If you are doing this kind of work it's really just about attention to detail and taking your time.

If you're putting in all new provisions and whatnot, and really modifying the contract, you should consider asking someone in the office for a little help.

As far as communication, it's your job to work around the person above you. Try to make sure you understand exactly what you need to do before you get off the phone.

[guano]

I've been having some issues w/ one particular attorney at my summer job. He generally likes to talk on the phone while giving instructions on assignments which I'm fine with. The issue is that he's been getting pretty pissed about having to tell me something more than once or having to clarify certain instructions. I like the work itself--it's contract drafting and modification (long and complicated contracts). The problem I think is that this attorney is dealing with an inexperienced 3L who (i'll admit) is a bit slow when it comes to complicated business transactions and the lingo involved in this stuff. He treats me as if I understand a lot more than I do about these deals. Going through a long and complicated contract to tie up loose ends and modify certain sections is something that takes a lot of time for me, and I like to be clear on just about everything I'm told to do. Again the issue is that this attorney is getting really frustrated when we have a miscommunication or when I need to be told something more than once (not in writing...he talks on the phone while I take notes). I'm just wondering how the hell I can improve my situation because this guy, whether I like it or not, is doing the front-end stuff (as opposed to litigation) which is what I'm truly interested in--so I need to make our relationship work.

write down everything (put your typing skills to use). Stop and ask him to explain things if it's over your head (not too often). Try to read up on the lingo as much as you can, and ask people to explain things you don't understand during your down time.


edit: this is generic communication advice; I'm not giving legal employment advice

[rouser]

As far as communication, it's your job to work around the person above you. Try to make sure you understand exactly what you need to do before you get off the phone.

That would involve asking for clarification or asking him to repeat himself which is the issue--he gets angry when he has to say something twice. I guess my biggest point is that, for me it would be beneficial to have a brief, typed copy of the instructions so I can have all of these business terms in writing, instead of having to guess on things. For instance, when a certain business term pops up in our phone conversation, it would be nice to have that term in writing so that I can look it up if I'm unclear.

[rouser]

ask people to explain things you don't understand during your down time.

I tried this and he said if I ask people in other departments to explain things, it makes us look like idiots. he said I take instructions from him only. I think this further illustrates why it would be helpful to have more of the instructions in writing, so that I can do a quick Google search on certain business terms to get a better grasp of the concept I'm unclear on.

[minnbills]

I tried this and he said if I ask people in other departments to explain things, it makes us look like idiots.

Really? That's weird. Try to get work from other attorneys so you're not relying on this guy.

[rouser]

I tried this and he said if I ask people in other departments to explain things, it makes us look like idiots.

Really? That's weird. Try to get work from other attorneys so you're not relying on this guy.

I would actually rather keep working with him over the summer since he's the one putting these contracts together. I think I just need to try to get him to meet me half way in terms of the preferred communication style.

[guano]

I just need to try to get him to meet me half way

I don't think you understand the boss/subordinate dynamic

[NYSprague]

Find a way to record the call so you can go back over the instructions.
It may be impossible for him to understand how little you know about what you are doing.

This sounds like a train wreck.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Find a way to record the call so you can go back over the instructions.

don't do this.

[NYSprague]

Find a way to record the call so you can go back over the instructions.

don't do this.

What is your suggestion? Maybe the guy could just leave him voicemails.
I didn't mean to record without permission.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Find a way to record the call so you can go back over the instructions.

don't do this.

What is your suggestion? Maybe the guy could just leave him voicemails.
I didn't mean to record without permission.

Fair enough then. Don't record without his knowledge was my point.

I think the best answer is what guano suggested - take copious notes. That's how to get a written record of the assignments without imposing on this guy. As a junior lawyer people will expect you to be able to take notes that perfectly reflect their conversations, this is as good a time as any to learn that skill.

[NYSprague]

Find a way to record the call so you can go back over the instructions.

don't do this.

What is your suggestion? Maybe the guy could just leave him voicemails.
I didn't mean to record without permission.

Fair enough then. Don't record without his knowledge was my point.

I think the best answer is what guano suggested - take copious notes. That's how to get a written record of the assignments without imposing on this guy. As a junior lawyer people will expect you to be able to take notes that perfectly reflect their conversations, this is as good a time as any to learn that skill.

This doesn't seem to be working. On the phone people talk faster and can't see if you need a second to finish writing something. Plus he doesn't know what the words mean.

This lawyer is already extremely frustrated with him. He needs a better solution.

[rpupkin]

I'm just wondering how the hell I can improve my situation because this guy, whether I like it or not, is doing the front-end stuff (as opposed to litigation) which is what I'm truly interested in--so I need to make our relationship work.

First off, under no circumstances should you make audio recordings of your conversations with this guy (or any other attorney at your firm). And do not adopt the poster's suggestion to ask permission to record your conversation. This falls into that "it will seem weird and can get you no-offered" category.

Do you find that you're having to ask lots of follow-up questions? And, per chance, are those follow-up questions spread across several conversations? In my experience, most attorneys don't mind a single follow-up in which you ask for clarification on a few points. But if you keep coming back with different questions that you could have asked all at once, you're going to annoy just about anyone.

[NYSprague]

I'm just wondering how the hell I can improve my situation because this guy, whether I like it or not, is doing the front-end stuff (as opposed to litigation) which is what I'm truly interested in--so I need to make our relationship work.

First off, under no circumstances should you make audio recordings of your conversations with this guy (or any other attorney at your firm). And do not adopt the poster's suggestion to ask permission to record your conversation. This falls into that "it will seem weird and can get you no-offered" category.

Do you find that you're having to ask lots of follow-up questions? And, per chance, are those follow-up questions spread across several conversations? In my experience, most attorneys don't mind a single follow-up in which you ask for clarification on a few points. But if you keep coming back with different questions that you could have asked all at once, you're going to annoy just about anyone.

Yeah. I was thinking of the times people left detailed comments on voicemail due to time differences and it worked out.
I guess typing as fast as you can is the only way here.
I think OP is in trouble and should get other work.

[BigRob]

Understand as much as you can, then get back to your desk, quickly type up what your understanding of the assignment is, and email him something like, "My understanding is that you want me to XYZ . . . . Is that right?"

[smallfirmassociate]

I guess my biggest point is that, for me it would be beneficial to have a brief, typed copy of the instructions so I can have all of these business terms in writing, instead of having to guess on things.

You're not always going to have that in real life (e.g. not school). As a matter of fact, you're pretty much never going to have a concise memo of typed instructions regarding your assignment, or at least not one you find comprehensive or particularly useful. Suck it up, buttercup!

For instance, when a certain business term pops up in our phone conversation, it would be nice to have that term in writing so that I can look it up if I'm unclear.

Notes and memory are both great tools. You're expected to use them as a lawyer, to varying extents based on your particular job. If you're not able to use them quickly and effectively enough in this case, that doesn't necessarily make you an idiot or a bad lawyer, but it may make you a bad fit to work for this particular guy. If you want to work for this guy, I'd recommend getting good at using notes and your memory, and get busy on Google and Black's.

Understand as much as you can, then get back to your desk, quickly type up what your understanding of the assignment is, and email him something like, "My understanding is that you want me to XYZ . . . . Is that right?"

My opinion is that this is terrible advice for your particular situation. This is a partner who wants to be bothered less. The last thing he wants to do is have to clarify, and a guy who insists on talking on the phone is highly unlikely to want to take the time to email you a response.

I'll be honest, not to be harsh but because this may be useful to you: This sounds like a case where you're being a bit of a non-hacker or aren't progressing. I understand that it could be a case where the guy is simply unreasonable, but most people in his position would just expect to see progress, not brilliance, from an SA. If you're not getting better at these assignments, that could be a major source of his frustration. Try to see it from his side. You are hired to make his life easier and save time. If he has to spend a lot of time explaining everything to you, he might as well do it himself. Get crack-a-lackin on schooling yourself on the terms and concepts you need to know, because unlike school, nobody is going to hold your hand through what is now your big boy career. You've got to take charge and get the knowledge and skills you need to keep your head above water, and sometimes that means adjusting to unreasonable expectations (e.g. If you have to read the entire R2K this weekend, then you either fucking do it or run the risk of being no-offered). Best of luck.

[rouser]

I'll be honest, not to be harsh but because this may be useful to you: This sounds like a case where you're being a bit of a non-hacker or aren't progressing. I understand that it could be a case where the guy is simply unreasonable, but most people in his position would just expect to see progress, not brilliance, from an SA.

I think this is correct. Sometimes things just can't be reconciled. Unfortunately it might be time to stop requesting more work from this person, despite the fact that he does the kind of work that I want to do (contract drafting, modification, negotiation, etc). I initially thought we could make it work, but it didn't. Our personalities are an absolute mismatch. He hates writing, and comes off as more of a litigation-type guy because he loves to argue; he'll argue every little point and purposely try to make you look bad. Although initially surprising to begin with, I think the reason he's on the front-end side is that he makes a hell of a negotiator in a deal. Makes sense. Bottom line is that I have some options in terms of choosing who to work with, and I will be avoiding this person in the future. I'll add that the structure at this shop is not one where subordinates do what they're told or get put out--matching seniors and subordinates is important.

[smallfirmassociate]

Good -- based on that structure, now may be the time to move on and try to build relationships with other profitable partners. There is something to be said for dignity in your profession. The general consensus on TLS is to do anything to get an offer, but I tried to frame my previous post as posing a choice. Sometimes there are bad matches, sometimes there are sacrifices a person doesn't want to make. There is no ultimate authority for when to cave, when to be miserable, when to walk on eggshells. Part of being a lawyer means putting up with some shit and building your skills around your employer / he who provideth the paycheck, but I firmly believe that part of being a lawyer or a human being in any profession is having self-confidence and respect for yourself and knowing when to stop putting up with shit and when to stand firm on your skills and value. One approach is more risky than the other, but if you find your niche and get really good at something, a firm will humor your special snowflake-ness and pay you and give you good assignments. I took a risk along those lines and it worked for me, but that has to be a calculated risk. You can't just bounce around trying to find an "easy" spot. You also can't just continually be mediocre at things and serially abandon them. You have to be really fucking good at a few things and have partners wanting to call you on your cell phone at the last minute before they meet with clients to run things by you. You have to be drafting portions of dispositive motions and be able to answer complex questions in your area of law off the cuff. What I'm saying is that it seems you weren't at that level with the contracts thing, and that's fine, but if you go to work for another partner, you have to work to get to that point as soon as possible if you want to establish value with the firm.

[rouser]

You also can't just continually be mediocre at things and serially abandon them. You have to be really fucking good at a few things and have partners wanting to call you on your cell phone at the last minute before they meet with clients to run things by you. You have to be drafting portions of dispositive motions and be able to answer complex questions in your area of law off the cuff. What I'm saying is that it seems you weren't at that level with the contracts thing, and that's fine, but if you go to work for another partner, you have to work to get to that point as soon as possible if you want to establish value with the firm.

this is generally agreeable. the point I was making about pairing seniors and juniors is that it's better for business to have a good match. yet, as you suggest, if the junior isn't a profit-making asset based on the opinions of several bosses, then yes, they probably are not lasting long. I also would agree that the common rule is to do whatever you can to get an offer, largely because most of us are facing enormous debt and want to pay that debt off quickly, even if it means polishing the shoes and serving as a punching bag for seniors while working 70 hrs/wk.

[kaiser]

MUCH better to just ask (and have him be upset that he has to repeat) than to turn in flawed work product. That will make him, or any other attorney, much more upset. Yeah, some summers need a bit more guidance on things, or need a bit more instruction. Can be frustrating to repeat things over and over, but its 100x easier to repeat something than to fixed a screwed up work product

[kaiser]

Understand as much as you can, then get back to your desk, quickly type up what your understanding of the assignment is, and email him something like, "My understanding is that you want me to XYZ . . . . Is that right?"

While it is very smart to repeat back your understanding of the assignment, it should be done right there on the spot after you write everything down. You need to parrot back and discuss when it is first being layed out for you. Once you leave the room, the attorney's mind may be somewhere else entirely, and emails have a way of falling through the cracks. If you do not understand something, want clarification, or want to just chat a bit about the project, do it right then and there.

And give me a break with the "I'd like written instructions" thing. Thats not how real life is. You need to get used to jotting down the details quickly, and trying to process them as they are explained to you. Toward the end, just take a second to say, "ok, so just to make sure we are on the same page, you would like me to do X and Y..." And then you either get a "yep, you got it" or you get a correction where you may be off on a detail.

[rouser]

I would agree that putting the person on speaker and being able to type the notes is probably something that would help, as someone else suggested. I've mainly been taking notes by hand while listening which is one of the issues since it's hard to keep up sometimes that way.

[kaiser]

Then you ask the person to slow down a bit, or repeat something on the spot if you miss it. Don't hesitate to cut in.