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Title. My firm allows associates to retake the bar exam without being fired. I'll try to pass, obv., but if I fail...does it matter?

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Anonymous User wrote:Title. My firm allows associates to retake the bar exam without being fired. I'll try to pass, obv., but if I fail...does it matter?

The only person I know at my firm in my department who failed once ended up failing twice and being let go.
I think it affected the work he got in the interim, but I'm not sure how much.
Just don't fail.

This is what my father, a partner at a major biglaw firm, said to me when I studied for the bar:

"If you fail, you are finished at your firm. They may not fire you immediately - though they might - but they'll push you out by the end of your second year. And you'll never get a good assignment while you're there."

I was told by a biglaw partner that no one at his v10 who failed the bar has ever made partner.

When bar results came out, my then-firm sent out a big congratulatory email listing off all the new grads who had passed and generally made a big deal out of it.

Imagine how it would look to people if your name wasn't on that list. As a partner, are you going to give e good assignments to someone whose name wasn't on that list? You may not get fired, but people will remember.

kalvano wrote:When bar results came out, my then-firm sent out a big congratulatory email listing off all the new grads who had passed and generally made a big deal out of it.

Imagine how it would look to people if your name wasn't on that list. As a partner, are you going to give e good assignments to someone whose name wasn't on that list? You may not get fired, but people will remember.

Yeah. Everyone will know if you fail. There will be a congratulatory and spontaneous happy hour in honor of those who passed - and you won't be there, everyone will know why, and if you aren't there everyone will mention it, feel bad for you, and be glad they aren't you.

Don't fail. It's the ultimate choke. And you're not Hilary Clinton.

In DC since we all take other bars, there is no big list of PASSERS. But when you mysteriously disappear in January until after the Feb. bar, people will notice.

Anonymous User wrote:This is what my father, a partner at a major biglaw firm, said to me when I studied for the bar:

"If you fail, you are finished at your firm. They may not fire you immediately - though they might - but they'll push you out by the end of your second year. And you'll never get a good assignment while you're there."

That's a bit of an exaggeration. It depends on how busy your practice area is and what you bring to the table. If you do really good work, you'll get more work. If you don't, you'll get starved out of hours and eventually pushed out. The people who are particularly fucked are those at firms who staff cases with a shitton of junior associates. They usually bring in pretty big summer classes and it's easy for losers to get left out when it comes to getting good work. If your firm staffs cases leanly, and if your practice group is busy, you might be fine.

In any event, failing the bar is a major fuck up. You should do everything in your power to make sure you pass. What else do you have to do? Seriously.

Usually negative on biglaw experience but gotta disagree here. Firms are pretty understanding and I haven't seen it held against failers.

The real reason not to fail is you will have to take four weeks off unpaid to study and the test will be intense as hell with your job on the line. Most firms fire after two tries, pretty much all I know give no more than 3. I cannot imagine taking the test with your job on the line. Say what you want about biglaw, but I've seen these people going from 160k income to not being able to find a job as lawyer, seems scary as shit.

Actually had a conversation with a bunch of midlevels about this yesterday (NYC V20). The general consensus was that failing once isn't a huge deal, shit happens, but if you fail it twice you're gone.

Anonymous User wrote:Actually had a conversation with a bunch of midlevels about this yesterday (NYC V20). The general consensus was that failing once isn't a huge deal, shit happens, but if you fail it twice you're gone.

LegalReality wrote:Usually negative on biglaw experience but gotta disagree here. Firms are pretty understanding and I haven't seen it held against failers.

^ agree with these, not the doom and gloomers.

thesealocust wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Actually had a conversation with a bunch of midlevels about this yesterday (NYC V20). The general consensus was that failing once isn't a huge deal, shit happens, but if you fail it twice you're gone.

LegalReality wrote:Usually negative on biglaw experience but gotta disagree here. Firms are pretty understanding and I haven't seen it held against failers.

^ agree with these, not the doom and gloomers.

Same. I don't think it's that big a deal. People talked about the guy who failed for like the day that results came out and then no one really cared.

El Pollito wrote:

thesealocust wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Actually had a conversation with a bunch of midlevels about this yesterday (NYC V20). The general consensus was that failing once isn't a huge deal, shit happens, but if you fail it twice you're gone.

LegalReality wrote:Usually negative on biglaw experience but gotta disagree here. Firms are pretty understanding and I haven't seen it held against failers.

^ agree with these, not the doom and gloomers.

Same. I don't think it's that big a deal. People talked about the guy who failed for like the day that results came out and then no one really cared.

Just because most people don't have their legal careers torpedoed by failing bar doesn't mean it's not a big deal for biglawyers. We're talking about a profession where you get yelled at for misplacing commas. Do you really think no biglaw partners would think failing the bar is a big deal? I'm not saying they all think it's a big deal, but you should be concerned about even one partner writing you off as an idiot when there are dozens of other junior associates he/she could work with. It's at least as big of a deal as screwing up on an assignment, IMO.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

El Pollito wrote:

thesealocust wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Actually had a conversation with a bunch of midlevels about this yesterday (NYC V20). The general consensus was that failing once isn't a huge deal, shit happens, but if you fail it twice you're gone.

LegalReality wrote:Usually negative on biglaw experience but gotta disagree here. Firms are pretty understanding and I haven't seen it held against failers.

^ agree with these, not the doom and gloomers.

Same. I don't think it's that big a deal. People talked about the guy who failed for like the day that results came out and then no one really cared.

Just because most people don't have their legal careers torpedoed by failing bar doesn't mean it's not a big deal for biglawyers. We're talking about a profession where you get yelled at for misplacing commas. Do you really think no biglaw partners would think failing the bar is a big deal? I'm not saying they all think it's a big deal, but you should be concerned about even one partner writing you off as an idiot when there are dozens of other junior associates he/she could work with. It's at least as big of a deal as screwing up on an assignment, IMO.

No, I never said that and you sort of just made it up.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:This is what my father, a partner at a major biglaw firm, said to me when I studied for the bar:

"If you fail, you are finished at your firm. They may not fire you immediately - though they might - but they'll push you out by the end of your second year. And you'll never get a good assignment while you're there."

That's a bit of an exaggeration. It depends on how busy your practice area is and what you bring to the table. If you do really good work, you'll get more work. If you don't, you'll get starved out of hours and eventually pushed out. The people who are particularly fucked are those at firms who staff cases with a shitton of junior associates. They usually bring in pretty big summer classes and it's easy for losers to get left out when it comes to getting good work. If your firm staffs cases leanly, and if your practice group is busy, you might be fine.

In any event, failing the bar is a major fuck up. You should do everything in your power to make sure you pass. What else do you have to do? Seriously.

I disagree with you. At my pop's shop, and my shop, we don't work with junior associates who fail the bar. Period. You get a year or so of doc review or diligence, as applicable, and then a pat on the back. It is fatal. Don't fail the [foul]ing bar.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:This is what my father, a partner at a major biglaw firm, said to me when I studied for the bar:

"If you fail, you are finished at your firm. They may not fire you immediately - though they might - but they'll push you out by the end of your second year. And you'll never get a good assignment while you're there."

That's a bit of an exaggeration. It depends on how busy your practice area is and what you bring to the table. If you do really good work, you'll get more work. If you don't, you'll get starved out of hours and eventually pushed out. The people who are particularly fucked are those at firms who staff cases with a shitton of junior associates. They usually bring in pretty big summer classes and it's easy for losers to get left out when it comes to getting good work. If your firm staffs cases leanly, and if your practice group is busy, you might be fine.

In any event, failing the bar is a major fuck up. You should do everything in your power to make sure you pass. What else do you have to do? Seriously.

Failing the bar is a pretty bad idea. At best it's going to hurt your ability to take on good work early on, because you are going to have to take time off to study. There was one guy in my first year class of ~25 who failed the bar. He was gone (not voluntarily) in 18 months even though he passed on his second try and was in a hot practice group.

Surely this depends on the State. In Texas, where we have an 80% pass rate, failing the bar is a often fatal. My firm is quite laid back, but they assured me that none of their associates have failed the bar, and none of their associates will ever fail the bar (i.e.- if you fail, goodbye).

I can imagine that it's much different in somewhere like California.

During SA exit interviews my NYC firm specifically told people to be sure to pass the bar, so I'm guessing it's an important consideration to them.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: you should be concerned about even one partner writing you off as an idiot when there are dozens of other junior associates he/she could work with.

Why? I don't really get this. Sure, better not to have anyone dislike you ever, but if it's a matter of a couple people with sticks up their ass who don't give you work, who cares?

I mean don't fail the bar if you can help it, obviously, but I just don't get this attitude of being concerned because something might be a turnoff to "even one partner."

Failing the first time is no big deal, though everyone will talk about it behind your back because biglaw breeds those personalities.

Failing it the second time is a big deal. A lot of firms typically terminate you after that.

zweitbester wrote:Failing the first time is no big deal, though everyone will talk about it behind your back because biglaw breeds those personalities.

Failing it the second time is a big deal. A lot of firms typically terminate you after that.

That makes sense. Frankly if you fail the bar twice, unless there are some bizarre circumstances, it's a good sign you don't have the work ethic or intellect to work in biglaw. Passing the bar is not hard in comparison to anything you'll be asked to do at work.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

zweitbester wrote:Failing the first time is no big deal, though everyone will talk about it behind your back because biglaw breeds those personalities.

Failing it the second time is a big deal. A lot of firms typically terminate you after that.

That makes sense. Frankly if you fail the bar twice, unless there are some bizarre circumstances, it's a good sign you don't have the work ethic or intellect to work in biglaw. Passing the bar is not hard in comparison to anything you'll be asked to do at work.

That's a little arrogant. Biglaw doesn't really require that much intellect to succeed, and a bar exam isn't a test of one's intelligence. I know quite a few people who have failed twice and led successful biglaw careers (including one making partner at his firm).

The bar exam is dumb. I could easily have seen myself failing either of the ones I took.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

zweitbester wrote:Failing the first time is no big deal, though everyone will talk about it behind your back because biglaw breeds those personalities.

Failing it the second time is a big deal. A lot of firms typically terminate you after that.

That makes sense. Frankly if you fail the bar twice, unless there are some bizarre circumstances, it's a good sign you don't have the work ethic or intellect to work in biglaw. Passing the bar is not hard in comparison to anything you'll be asked to do at work.

I know this is a common mentality for a lot of biglaw firms, but to me it makes no fucking sense. Why would failing it twice matter so much more than once? It's not like biglaw firms are giving people second chances about their grades. There are grade cutoffs and no one gives a fuck if you had one bad class or one bad semester that dropped you below the cutoff. If you fail the bar twice instead of once, it just means you were a lazy sack of shit twice instead of once. Both circumstances are indications that you're lazy.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: you should be concerned about even one partner writing you off as an idiot when there are dozens of other junior associates he/she could work with.

Why? I don't really get this. Sure, better not to have anyone dislike you ever, but if it's a matter of a couple people with sticks up their ass who don't give you work, who cares?

I mean don't fail the bar if you can help it, obviously, but I just don't get this attitude of being concerned because something might be a turnoff to "even one partner."

Intuitively, it doesn't make sense that one partner's negative reaction should torpedo your career in a large firm when there are many other partners whom you could work with. However, in many firms, by year 2 or 3 the firm is looking to cull its associate ranks. At that point, all it takes to distinguish you from "high performing" associates is one negative review or one partner who has a grudge or thinks you're an idiot. And firms won't hesitate to use such excuses to fire you. I've seen it happen, and it isn't pretty or particularly fair.