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T10 student here. I'm still waiting for a couple more grades, but it looks like I'll be entering 3L with ~3.2. I struck out at OCI last year so this summer I have an internship that may or may not lead to full-time employment. I'd still like to be able to work at a firm but I'm not sure if that's possible any longer. Is it possible for someone with such bad grades to secure a firm offer as a 3L? Any advice is appreciated.

What's your schools median?

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Median after 1L was between a 3.2-3.25. I'm guessing it has risen to ~3.3 after 2L.

Were you graded on a curve? Any grades below B-? Any nuggets, perhaps an A or a couple A-?

One B-. Mostly Bs and B+s. One A- in a heavily curved class and an A in a pretty easy class.

I am in the same boat as poster above at T20. I transferred to a T20 from Tier 2 and entering 3L slightly below median. Best grade in class in property A at 1L, and worst grade a C+ in 2L. Not sure where to go from here.

Anonymous User wrote:T10 student here. I'm still waiting for a couple more grades, but it looks like I'll be entering 3L with ~3.2. I struck out at OCI last year so this summer I have an internship that may or may not lead to full-time employment. I'd still like to be able to work at a firm but I'm not sure if that's possible any longer. Is it possible for someone with such bad grades to secure a firm offer as a 3L? Any advice is appreciated.

I don't know anyone who got a big firm job from my class year (2012) without having done an SA. I know people who struck out and got SA's through mass mailing or networking, but not doing one is a huge liability.

I don't say this to discourage you, but to dissuade you from failing to pursue other avenues until it's too late. There are decent small to mid-sized firms that do work for mid-sized local and regional businesses. They might pay half of market, but some pay six figures. I know a few people who got these jobs after striking out, though they generally were unemployed for months or sometimes more than a year before they got those jobs.

Mass-mail to pursue big and mid-sized firms if you want, but your primary focus right now should be on smaller firms and state-level clerkships. Smaller firms generally won't look at you until after you pass the bar, and having a state-level clerkship lined up for after graduation would give you a solid base from which to conduct your job search.

rayiner wrote:I don't know anyone who got a big firm job from my class year (2012) without having done an SA. I know people who struck out and got SA's through mass mailing or networking, but not doing one is a huge liability.

I don't say this to discourage you, but to dissuade you from failing to pursue other avenues until it's too late. There are decent small to mid-sized firms that do work for mid-sized local and regional businesses. They might pay half of market, but some pay six figures. I know a few people who got these jobs after striking out, though they generally were unemployed for months or sometimes more than a year before they got those jobs.

Mass-mail to pursue big and mid-sized firms if you want, but your primary focus right now should be on smaller firms and state-level clerkships. Smaller firms generally won't look at you until after you pass the bar, and having a state-level clerkship lined up for after graduation would give you a solid base from which to conduct your job search.

Thanks so much. This helps a lot. Do you think it's worth it to look at in-house positions?

Anonymous User wrote:One B-. Mostly Bs and B+s. One A- in a heavily curved class and an A in a pretty easy class.

A bit surprised that your T10 grades didn’t land you a fairly good SA. Did you receive any callbacks? If so, what happened? Does your LS have a SFJ program?

The above advice about mass-mailing, etc. is 180.

Dafaq wrote:A bit surprised that your T10 grades didn’t land you a fairly good SA. Did you receive any callbacks? If so, what happened? Does your LS have a SFJ program?

The above advice about mass-mailing, etc. is 180.

Well, I had a 3.0 at the end of 1L, so that's one thing. I had callbacks at two NLJ 250 firms but no offer.

What is an SFJ program? And you still think I should focus on mass-mailing? Thanks.

Anonymous User wrote:

rayiner wrote:I don't know anyone who got a big firm job from my class year (2012) without having done an SA. I know people who struck out and got SA's through mass mailing or networking, but not doing one is a huge liability.

I don't say this to discourage you, but to dissuade you from failing to pursue other avenues until it's too late. There are decent small to mid-sized firms that do work for mid-sized local and regional businesses. They might pay half of market, but some pay six figures. I know a few people who got these jobs after striking out, though they generally were unemployed for months or sometimes more than a year before they got those jobs.

Mass-mail to pursue big and mid-sized firms if you want, but your primary focus right now should be on smaller firms and state-level clerkships. Smaller firms generally won't look at you until after you pass the bar, and having a state-level clerkship lined up for after graduation would give you a solid base from which to conduct your job search.

Thanks so much. This helps a lot. Do you think it's worth it to look at in-house positions?

I don't know much about applying in-house, but I know at least one person who did in-house at a company that had a formal entry-level program. It's certainly worth a shot.

Anonymous User wrote: What is an SFJ program?

SFJ = School Funded Jobs. Many schools offer SFJ to 3Ls. Do not know details except that the school pay$ you to do legal work for a period of × weeks with the outlook of having their students land on their feet. For instance UVA claims that 20% of their employed students are employed because of their SFJ. There are certainly some TLSers around who can fill you in. GL.

flawschoolkid wrote:3.2 (assuming that is reasonably sub-median) at a T10 isn't terrible - there are so many students in a much worse boat then you. If you want to be a lawyer, keep mass-mailing, gaining experience, applying, etc.

If you don't want to be a lawyer, drop out.

Yes, but most have the advantage of being underrepresented minorities.

BigRob wrote:

flawschoolkid wrote:3.2 (assuming that is reasonably sub-median) at a T10 isn't terrible - there are so many students in a much worse boat then you. If you want to be a lawyer, keep mass-mailing, gaining experience, applying, etc.

If you don't want to be a lawyer, drop out.

Yes, but most have the advantage of being underrepresented minorities.

So, saying that submedian students are mostly URMs is either saying that URMs are less smart than their classmates, or a comment on the effects of AA, which is not allowed outside of the AA thread. It's also totally derailing the point of this thread. So you can go away for a little while.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

BigRob wrote:

flawschoolkid wrote:3.2 (assuming that is reasonably sub-median) at a T10 isn't terrible - there are so many students in a much worse boat then you. If you want to be a lawyer, keep mass-mailing, gaining experience, applying, etc.

If you don't want to be a lawyer, drop out.

Yes, but most have the advantage of being underrepresented minorities.

So, saying that submedian students are mostly URMs is either saying that URMs are less smart than their classmates, or a comment on the effects of AA, which is not allowed outside of the AA thread. It's also totally derailing the point of this thread. So you can go away for a little while.

Assumption based on fact lends itself to implication and leads to ban. Seems legit.

BigRob wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:So, saying that submedian students are mostly URMs is either saying that URMs are less smart than their classmates, or a comment on the effects of AA, which is not allowed outside of the AA thread. It's also totally derailing the point of this thread. So you can go away for a little while.

Assumption based on fact lends itself to implication and leads to ban. Seems legit.

If you have a problem with the ban you can bring it up in the Q&A thread.

Ain't no thing but a chicken wing, Cookie Monster ocean wave.

rayiner wrote:There are decent small to mid-sized firms that do work for mid-sized local and regional businesses.

rayiner wrote:your primary focus right now should be on smaller firms and state-level clerkships. Smaller firms generally won't look at you until after you pass the bar, and having a state-level clerkship lined up for after graduation would give you a solid base from which to conduct your job search.

Yeah, rayiner nailed it.

I'd say try and contact mid-to-small firms to see if you can do some projects for them, or maybe come on as a part-time "law clerk" or something while you're in school too. Not that that's going to have a high success rate, but you'll be way more likely to eventually be an employed if you do that rather than beating the biglaw drum over and over.

prezidentv8 wrote:

rayiner wrote:There are decent small to mid-sized firms that do work for mid-sized local and regional businesses.

rayiner wrote:your primary focus right now should be on smaller firms and state-level clerkships. Smaller firms generally won't look at you until after you pass the bar, and having a state-level clerkship lined up for after graduation would give you a solid base from which to conduct your job search.

Yeah, rayiner nailed it.

+1. Most of your job search is really going need to come from networking with attorneys at small and midsize firms because your grades are not going to be what gets you in the door. With respect to midsize firms, I would focus on the smaller "midsize" firms, if that makes any sense, because most actual midsize firms typically hire through SA classes similar to biglaw.

it really doesn't matter. You need to apply to every job opening that you see. Whether in-house, big law, small law, what have you. You can also get Big Law even though you didn't summer. However, your odds are very low. Very, very low.