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Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:31 pm
by Anonymous User
Hi everyone,
Starting as an associate in the fall. Was wondering if it is ethical to bill some time while doing cardio.
In law school I usually would go over outlines or my notes while on the exercise bike. It was a productive use of time. So, if I'm reviewing a memo or reading over some research while doing relaxed to moderate exercise on an exercise bike, could I bill that time?
Wasn't sure if this would be ok to just ask my firm, and if they would all think I am an idiot. I guess the risk of asking this is all of TLS thinking I am an idiot....
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:34 pm
by DELG
Yeah it would be fine but it might be harder to plan to have cardio-friendly work at the right time than you think
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:36 pm
by jdx2014
I was always told to "think about the case while you poo" to bill for it
Legally I think as long as you think about it while banging the dog and walking the old lady it's still ok, as long as you are thinking about the case.
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:38 pm
by DELG
Anonymous User wrote:I was always told to "think about the case while you poo" to bill for it
Legally I think as long as you think about it while banging the dog and walking the old lady it's still ok, as long as you are thinking about the case.
I don't really get this, what would your billing narrative say
"Vaguely thinking about matter" ?
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:44 pm
by jdx2014
DELG wrote:Anonymous User wrote:I was always told to "think about the case while you poo" to bill for it
Legally I think as long as you think about it while banging the dog and walking the old lady it's still ok, as long as you are thinking about the case.
I don't really get this, what would your billing narrative say
"Vaguely thinking about matter" ?
Didn't say to "vaguely" do anything
if it makes you feel better sign papers on the back of her head
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:46 pm
by DELG
Signing? Who doesn't just /s/
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:48 pm
by jdx2014
DELG wrote:Signing? Who doesn't just /s/
Badasses
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:49 pm
by DELG
Anonymous User wrote:DELG wrote:Signing? Who doesn't just /s/
Badassespeople the paralegals secretly hate
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:53 pm
by jdx2014
DELG wrote:Anonymous User wrote:DELG wrote:Signing? Who doesn't just /s/
Badassespeople the paralegals secretly hate
How does a signature make a paralegal hate you?
And the paralegal is probably the one getting it signed on the back of their head to begin with
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:32 am
by Anonymous User
Bill whatever you're comfortable doing. It's impossible to draw the line between ethical and unethical billing. E.g. are you required to stop the clock when you take a minute to get a drink of water? What about a three minute restroom break? What about a nine minute shit? What about when you have gChat open and are working at 90% efficiency? What about when you're watching TV and working at 75% efficiency? What about the fourth quarter of a close football game when your efficiency drops to 50%?
Don't bother asking anyone at your firm. Everyone has their own view of when it's OK to bill and when it's not.
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:59 am
by unc0mm0n1
Anonymous User wrote:DELG wrote:Anonymous User wrote:I was always told to "think about the case while you poo" to bill for it
Legally I think as long as you think about it while banging the dog and walking the old lady it's still ok, as long as you are thinking about the case.
I don't really get this, what would your billing narrative say
"Vaguely thinking about matter" ?
Didn't say to "vaguely" do anything
if it makes you feel better sign papers on the back of her head
Yes is this anonymous? And why are you acting like this is a lounge thread?
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:44 am
by DELG
Probably posting anon to throw mods of his trail that he's a 0L
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:54 am
by seespotrun
DELG wrote:Probably posting anon to throw mods of his trail that he's a 0L
Talk about planning ahead.
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:56 am
by DELG
seespotrun wrote:DELG wrote:Probably posting anon to throw mods of his trail that he's a 0L
Talk about planning ahead.
Elder Spotty, how should we bill?
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:31 am
by seespotrun
DELG wrote:seespotrun wrote:DELG wrote:Probably posting anon to throw mods of his trail that he's a 0L
Talk about planning ahead.
Elder Spotty, how should we bill?
No matter what task you're billing for, be sure to enter a description that the client can't challenge in good faith. It's similar to the mindset one should have when describing entries on a privilege log (for anyone who's ever done that). You should truthfully describe your work in general terms, with the primary goal being to convince the client that the time you billed was spent on a necessary task and commensurate with the complexity of that task.
So, for example, if one is going to bill for time spent thinking about a case while shitting or riding an exercise bike, don't describe that entry as "thinking about [legal research or whatever the assignment may be]" because the client would think 'fuck, this is something I could do on the can.' Instead, describe your time as "review and analysis of legal research in connection with brief in opposition to plaintiff's motion to expedite."
Tldr bill defensively
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:41 am
by DELG
tytyty
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:38 am
by Anonymous User
Put one of these in your office
http://www.lifespanfitness.com/workplac ... ction.html
There are actually people in biglaw who have these things
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:32 pm
by thesealocust
seespotrun wrote:
No matter what task you're billing for, be sure to enter a description that the client can't challenge in good faith. It's similar to the mindset one should have when describing entries on a privilege log (for anyone who's ever done that). You should truthfully describe your work in general terms, with the primary goal being to convince the client that the time you billed was spent on a necessary task and commensurate with the complexity of that task.
So, for example, if one is going to bill for time spent thinking about a case while shitting or riding an exercise bike, don't describe that entry as "thinking about [legal research or whatever the assignment may be]" because the client would think 'fuck, this is something I could do on the can.' Instead, describe your time as "review and analysis of legal research in connection with brief in opposition to plaintiff's motion to expedite."
Tldr bill defensively
+10,000
99% of my time entries start with "reviewing," "drafting" or "analyzing."
Yes, reviewing a draft transaction document includes reading an email with it, printing it, loading paper into the printer, getting a soda next to the printer while it prints, etc. That's understood - your time entries aren't supposed to be stripped to the bone of your most insightful moments of brilliance - but you'll have happier clients and happier billing partners if you ethically bill your time with unimpeachable narratives.
I once "solved" a legal problem in the shower. I never thought to hard about whether or not I should bill "meditating on thorny legal issue while washing my hair" because billing is an art rather than a science, and I spent a lot of time on that matter at the office that day too, so I was never trying to parse my tasks and time into fine enough detail where it would even matter.
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:00 am
by 911 crisis actor
Pro tip: If you train yourself to become sexually aroused by the matters you're working on, you can bill the time you spend jacking off
Source: 3100 hours billed last year
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 12:53 pm
by Old Gregg
911 crisis actor wrote:Pro tip: If you train yourself to become sexually aroused by the matters you're working on, you can bill the time you spend jacking off
Source: 3100 hours billed last year
And this is why I never take seriously anyone who has billed 3,000 hours a year.
Everyone I know who has done that is the most unapologetic padder of them all. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being billers who flip on a timer when they actually start doing legal work and 10 being billers who bill time for thinking of MAE carve-outs while taking a shit, the 3,000/year billers tend to be on the 10 side of things.
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:14 pm
by 09042014
zweitbester wrote:911 crisis actor wrote:Pro tip: If you train yourself to become sexually aroused by the matters you're working on, you can bill the time you spend jacking off
Source: 3100 hours billed last year
And this is why I never take seriously anyone who has billed 3,000 hours a year.
Everyone I know who has done that is the most unapologetic padder of them all. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being billers who flip on a timer when they actually start doing legal work and 10 being billers who bill time for thinking of MAE carve-outs while taking a shit, the 3,000/year billers tend to be on the 10 side of things.
I think 10 on the padding side would be more like "was at the office for 5 hours, billed 9"
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:52 pm
by Danger Zone
Desert Fox wrote:zweitbester wrote:911 crisis actor wrote:Pro tip: If you train yourself to become sexually aroused by the matters you're working on, you can bill the time you spend jacking off
Source: 3100 hours billed last year
And this is why I never take seriously anyone who has billed 3,000 hours a year.
Everyone I know who has done that is the most unapologetic padder of them all. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being billers who flip on a timer when they actually start doing legal work and 10 being billers who bill time for thinking of MAE carve-outs while taking a shit, the 3,000/year billers tend to be on the 10 side of things.
I think 10 on the padding side would be more like "was at the office for 5 hours, billed 9"
Or the guy who tried to bill 28 hours in one day.
Re: Billing while doing cardio
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:55 pm
by Old Gregg
Danger Zone wrote:Desert Fox wrote:zweitbester wrote:911 crisis actor wrote:Pro tip: If you train yourself to become sexually aroused by the matters you're working on, you can bill the time you spend jacking off
Source: 3100 hours billed last year
And this is why I never take seriously anyone who has billed 3,000 hours a year.
Everyone I know who has done that is the most unapologetic padder of them all. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being billers who flip on a timer when they actually start doing legal work and 10 being billers who bill time for thinking of MAE carve-outs while taking a shit, the 3,000/year billers tend to be on the 10 side of things.
I think 10 on the padding side would be more like "was at the office for 5 hours, billed 9"
Or the guy who tried to bill 28 hours in one day.
So, theoretically, the explanation for that was that he shifted time zones while working on a plane for the IBM antitrust stuff at Cravath. While, theoretically, that might permit the 28 hours in one day concept to exist, I strongly doubt he billed every minute of that, even elongated, day.