Former V5 associate, former federal clerk, taking questions
Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:06 pm
Fire away.
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I left as a fourth year (2 years as an associate and 2 yr clerkship). Sorry for being unclear, I'm a former clerk. I'll be joining a plaintiff's firm next.Anonymous User wrote:How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?
Any advice for someone starting in biglaw who'd like to exit to a p firm someday?zombie associate wrote:I left as a fourth year (2 years as an associate and 2 yr clerkship). Sorry for being unclear, I'm a former clerk. I'll be joining a plaintiff's firm next.Anonymous User wrote:How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?
Yes. Make sure your financial house is in order because you will be taking a significant paycut. The longer you stay in biglaw, the bigger the paycut will be. If you have high monthly expenses (loans, mortgage, expensive habits) you might not be able to make the jump.Elston Gunn wrote:Any advice for someone starting in biglaw who'd like to exit to a p firm someday?zombie associate wrote:I left as a fourth year (2 years as an associate and 2 yr clerkship). Sorry for being unclear, I'm a former clerk. I'll be joining a plaintiff's firm next.Anonymous User wrote:How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?
My clerkship was sandwiched between two stints at my V5. The first time I left, they told me that I could come back. I didn't want to return, but due to life circumstances, I later returned. I do not plan to return in the future. My main problem with biglaw is (1) it's not a good fit for my personality and (2) you are trading your personal time and skill development for money. After a while it wasn't hard to figure out that continuing to stay would be a mistake.exitoptions wrote:Did you have an open offer to return to the V5, and if so, why don't you want to return?
As mentioned in my above response, I decided to go P side after my second biglaw stint. I didn't examine my other options, although I probably could have done some other defense biglaw/midlaw. I make decisions by choosing what I want to do first, then figuring out a way to get it second, instead of seeing what my options are and choosing among them. Personal style I guess.toothbrush wrote:What other options did you have on the table for you when making your decision not to return, besides going to a p firm?
1. I can't speak generally but in my personal experience, it wasn't terribly difficult. The downside is that it's an unstructured process (no formal recruitment procedure) and there isn't a lot of information out there on how to do it. I was lucky because my firm happened to have an opening when I applied. The interesting thing is, if you are good enough on paper to get into biglaw, you're good enough on paper to get into a P's firm. But paper creds seem to be a small part of getting a job on the P side. Other important factors are how you present yourself, your perceived personality, social skills, and other intangibles.Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:1) how hard is it to go from a top vault firm to plaintiffs?
2) For hiring in a plaintiffs firm, how different is the skill set that they are looking for compared to big law?
congratulations on the career trajectory, I'd love to do the same.
Yes, NYC. I do think it may have been different in another market, based on what I hear from my friends in other cities. In NYC it's generally large scale securities litigations or massive investigations. Those types of cases are staffed heavily and the accompanying hierarchy can be stifling.Anonymous User wrote:Were you in NYC or another market, and I'm assuming you're lit - how much do you think being in a different market would have changed your experience? Would you have chosen a different firm if you could, prestige be damned?
It's one of the big national class action firms. I would have loved to work for a smaller, regional specialist firm though. When I was clerking, I realized that's where the action was.Anonymous User wrote:What kind of P firm are you going to? One of the big national class action firms (Lieff Cabraser, Korein Tillery, etc), or an employment discrimination/1983-type firm? Or are you going somewhere more regional?
Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.forza wrote:Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?
Have you seen these tangible benefits from picking a V5 with your peers who went into corporate (re: exit options)? I picked one over some other firms that seemed to be less demanding/ associates worked less hours, with the idea that it would be the right launching point for a career. For people who are fortunate to choose among the top firms, would you say that these firms are worth it?Anonymous User wrote:
Yes, NYC. I do think it may have been different in another market, based on what I hear from my friends in other cities. In NYC it's generally large scale securities litigations or massive investigations. Those types of cases are staffed heavily and the accompanying hierarchy can be stifling.
I have no regrets though. I chose my firm because of its reputation, but it wasn't just for prestige. Very early on, I realized that the prestige rat race is a losing proposition-you can never win that game. But going to a top firm did give me tremendous optionality in an uncertain world. The Lehman collapse happened a week after I received my offer. Since then, I never once worried about job security-a rare occurrence in today's legal market. My firm also had strong resume value because it created a presumption (rightly or wrongly-the jury is still out) that I am a good lawyer, and undoubtedly helped me (at least partially) land my clerkship and my plaintiff's firm job. If I wanted to leave law entirely, it would have been helpful too. I was given a generous clerkship bonus, and was always paid at NYC lockstep rates.
In retrospect I probably would have been happier and would have learned more at a small boutique. But then I'd give up a lot of the benefits described above. I'm not sure I would have been willing to make that tradeoff so early on in my career.
With regard to exit options, I would say that going V5 is more important for corporate than it is for litigation. First, there is the resume value that I describe above. But second, I noticed that at my firm, the corporate people gained extremely substantive work experience on large deals. (As in, the deal would be staffed by a partner, a senior associate, and a junior associate.) That's a very different experience than litigation, where you'd get better experience in a smaller case. And third, corporate offers what appears to be a more natural segue into in-house positions with the clients we serve.Anonymous User wrote:Have you seen these tangible benefits from picking a V5 with your peers who went into corporate (re: exit options)? I picked one over some other firms that seemed to be less demanding/ associates worked less hours, with the idea that it would be the right launching point for a career. For people who are fortunate to choose among the top firms, would you say that these firms are worth it?Anonymous User wrote:
Yes, NYC. I do think it may have been different in another market, based on what I hear from my friends in other cities. In NYC it's generally large scale securities litigations or massive investigations. Those types of cases are staffed heavily and the accompanying hierarchy can be stifling.
I have no regrets though. I chose my firm because of its reputation, but it wasn't just for prestige. Very early on, I realized that the prestige rat race is a losing proposition-you can never win that game. But going to a top firm did give me tremendous optionality in an uncertain world. The Lehman collapse happened a week after I received my offer. Since then, I never once worried about job security-a rare occurrence in today's legal market. My firm also had strong resume value because it created a presumption (rightly or wrongly-the jury is still out) that I am a good lawyer, and undoubtedly helped me (at least partially) land my clerkship and my plaintiff's firm job. If I wanted to leave law entirely, it would have been helpful too. I was given a generous clerkship bonus, and was always paid at NYC lockstep rates.
In retrospect I probably would have been happier and would have learned more at a small boutique. But then I'd give up a lot of the benefits described above. I'm not sure I would have been willing to make that tradeoff so early on in my career.
Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.zombie associate wrote:Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.forza wrote:Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?
Lol obviously not no tax bracket in the US is over 50%forza wrote:Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.zombie associate wrote:Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.forza wrote:Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?
Most bonuses get destroyed in taxes (the tax rate is huge on bonus income). I'm considering changing firms and one thing I'm trying to do is get more in salary and less by way of a bonus.forza wrote:Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.zombie associate wrote:Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.forza wrote:Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?
My clerkship was actually a bit under 2 years and my firm offered 60k. The tax bite is huge, although I'll note that there's no special tax rate on "bonus income." It's just that the bonus is taxed at a higher marginal rate, so it feels like they're taking away a higher percentage.reasonable_man wrote:Most bonuses get destroyed in taxes (the tax rate is huge on bonus income). I'm considering changing firms and one thing I'm trying to do is get more in salary and less by way of a bonus.forza wrote:Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.zombie associate wrote:Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.forza wrote:Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?
Just the withholding is different. It's all teh same come April 15threasonable_man wrote:Most bonuses get destroyed in taxes (the tax rate is huge on bonus income). I'm considering changing firms and one thing I'm trying to do is get more in salary and less by way of a bonus.forza wrote:Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.zombie associate wrote:Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.forza wrote:Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?