How fast can you REALLY pay your loans? Forum

[XxSpyKEx]

OP here

This thread has taken a number of interesting turns and actually yielded some interesting information. As an aside to DesertFox: When I said I like to "go out and drink occasionally" i didn't mean to imply I have a strip club addiction or something. I don't need to spend 2-3k a month on food/my social life.

It doesn't take a raging strip club addiction to spend 2k a month on food, drink, and entertainment.

400 for groceries
300 for take out
300 for lunch at work
80 bucks for a NATs game
5x 50 = 250 for dinner at a restaurant
25 bucks for a movie x2
120 - 1 date to the Kenedy center

That gets you 1500 right there and you are only eating out 1 time a week and doing 1 entertainment thing a week. Add dating, happy hours, weekend trips to NYC or back home, weddings, video games, taxis home to teh surburbs because you are too drunk, etc. etc. and 2000 isn't not unreasonable. And it's not a models and bottles lifestyle.

Everyone is right, you could live on 38k a year post tax, but you'd have to be very very diligent. That's entry level fed gov bitchwork takehome pay.

Well, at this rate of eating out you might as well just forbear your student loans and spend even more, because you're probably going to die within the next 10 years anyways I don't think you have be nearly as diligent or careful as you seem to think to live off of $38k /year post-tax, especially if you're living in the burbs.

My wife and I easily blow through $2k per month on food and drinks, and we're parents so its not even like we go out to nice clubs or whatever. With wine, dinner for 2 is $100 bucks easy. Sometimes you want to treat your parents when you go out together. That's $200 easy. You can't get out of Costco without spending $200-300. Take out is $30 for two if you get Indian/Chinese/Thai. My wife probably spends $200/month on bourbon and whiskey.

Holidays are another unexpected expense. You can't gift like a college student anymore, or at least you feel shmucky for doing so. My parents spent a lot of money on me, so I'm not just getting my mom a card for mother's day. Even if you're not extravagant, $100 a gift and dinner out for immediate family adds up between Christmas, birthdays, valentines day, mothers and father's day.

It's not hard to imagine how you could easily spend $10k per month on food, drinks, and entertainment. But, on the other hand, there are a lot of people who live in DC who don't spend $2k+ /month on those things.

I honestly don't know anyone in big law who doesn't eat at a restaurant 5 times a month.

I consider eating "take out" and "lunch at work" as eating out, since it's all the same horrible unhealthy junk. At $850 /month, I presumed you'd be "eating out" 1-2 meals a day. I have no idea how you pile on another $400 month of groceries. To eat $1250 /month in food, you serious need to either have the metabolism of a fox or be morbidly obese.

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500 on non rent/utilities.

Lol, so basically no one should ever accept a government job in DC after law school if they want to live like the "average person"...

[09042014]

You are arguing that 3k in monthly spending is totally outrageous. Unless you are just trying to nitpick my extremely simplistic back of the envelope math for shits and giggles.

I'm sorry for coming down on you hard. On reflection I realize that I consciously try to reduce expenses in weird ways that I didn't understand that not everyone thinks that way.

Anyways, I think it's definitely possible to live well in DC on around $1,000 to $1,500 a month for food and entertainment, etc. DC isn't that special and doesn't really have many of the money sinks that NYC has.

The real problem with DC is that a lot of costs nearly as much as NYC without delivering on quality. I don't do fancy dinners because its expensive and its not that great.

[09042014]

A salad costs more than bigmac meal.

[hdunlop]

God yes you nailed it. High prices for their own sake. Corduroy is the only fancy place I've thought was remotely worth the cost. Cashion's is solid. Maybe PS7 before it closed but that was mostly because I'm a soak and they had an amazing bartender.

Takeout and lunch at work definitely also fits in the "eating out" category for me. Hilariously, we budget $275 for grocery and $400 for restaurants for two. When I was making money it was more like $350 and $500 but $400 and $850 for one is incomprehensibly plush to me. I am cheap as fuck I'll admit but still there's got to be a middle ground in here somewhere -- even $400 and $850 for two is pretty rad IMO.

Edit to add--

I bet less than 5% of biglawyers (at least in their first two years) are paying 3k a month in DC/NYC/SF/LA.

Trust me on this, I'm paying it back faster than anyone I've ever heard of.

This is 100% true. Virtually no one does it. The comically frugal among us are just here to argue that a person could. It's just that they don't because ultimately it sucks a lot of ass. I think my argument at least, as above, is more for the middle ground.

[rayiner]

A salad costs more than bigmac meal.

The restaurant by where my office will be in DC this fall charges $9-11 for a salad. Its not a high-end sit down place, just yuppie subs and pizzas.

Also, a lot of the cheap eating at home is carb-heavy. Rice, pasta, beans. If you get your calories mostly from lean meat, fish, and veggies, its more expensive. We eat a lot of steelhead trout and Salmon, because its healthy and you can prepare it super simply (season then put it under the broiler for 15 min). Its also like $8 per pound, and that's on sale at Costco in big packages.

[09042014]

God yes you nailed it. High prices for their own sake. Corduroy is the only fancy place I've thought was remotely worth the cost. Cashion's is solid. Maybe PS7 before it closed but that was mostly because I'm a soak and they had an amazing bartender.

Takeout and lunch at work definitely also fits in the "eating out" category for me. Hilariously, we budget $275 for grocery and $400 for restaurants for two. When I was making money it was more like $350 and $500 but $400 and $850 for one is incomprehensibly plush to me. I am cheap as fuck I'll admit but still there's got to be a middle ground in here somewhere -- even $400 and $850 for two is pretty rad IMO.

Edit to add--

I bet less than 5% of biglawyers (at least in their first two years) are paying 3k a month in DC/NYC/SF/LA.

Trust me on this, I'm paying it back faster than anyone I've ever heard of.

This is 100% true. Virtually no one does it. The comically frugal among us are just here to argue that a person could. It's just that they don't because ultimately it sucks a lot of ass. I think my argument at least, as above, is more for the middle ground.

It's definitely possible, but like you said virtually nobody does it.

Like 1/10 juniors live in teh surburbs because it blows. They don't live with roommates or in studios because it blows. They aren't using craigslist furnature because it blows. People dress nice, they take more vacations that aren't just crashing on someone's bed. Instead of pregramming at Jakes house and then cruising in cheap bars, they have drinks afterwork at Joe's stonecrab.

You can probably find posts of mine where I say "hey man, I'm living well as a student, I can do this forever!" but it's not true.

[09042014]

A salad costs more than bigmac meal.

The restaurant by where my office will be in DC this fall charges $9-11 for a salad. Its not a high-end sit down place, just yuppie subs and pizzas.

Also, a lot of the cheap eating at home is carb-heavy. Rice, pasta, beans. If you get your calories mostly from lean meat, fish, and veggies, its more expensive. We eat a lot of steelhead trout and Salmon, because its healthy and you can prepare it super simply (season then put it under the broiler for 15 min). Its also like $8 per pound, and that's on sale at Costco in big packages.

Exactly. I get raped twice a week by Chopped. Somehow it's like ten bucks for a salad in a wrap.

[rayiner]

It comes down to: why doesn't anyone live cheaply on big law? These are smart people with a lot of discipline. So why do they splurge on food or entertainment or whatever? Its because the job can really be miserable, and its a way to justify the lifestyle to yourself. Its a stress outlet. If I spent all day getting yelled at by a mid level for something that was his fault, I might just be like fuck it, I'm not going home and eating leftovers. Let's go to that sushi place and I'll get a couple of drinks. When I spend most of the weekend working, I'm not going to be like let's go grocery shopping and plan out our meals for the week. Other people hit Gilt or Zappos hard, but for the same reasons.

[El Pollito]

A salad costs more than bigmac meal.

The restaurant by where my office will be in DC this fall charges $9-11 for a salad. Its not a high-end sit down place, just yuppie subs and pizzas.

Also, a lot of the cheap eating at home is carb-heavy. Rice, pasta, beans. If you get your calories mostly from lean meat, fish, and veggies, its more expensive. We eat a lot of steelhead trout and Salmon, because its healthy and you can prepare it super simply (season then put it under the broiler for 15 min). Its also like $8 per pound, and that's on sale at Costco in big packages.

Exactly. I get raped twice a week by Chopped. Somehow it's like ten bucks for a salad in a wrap.

Our cafeteria does cheap omelettes for lunch, which are extremely credited.

[rayiner]

Oh, one thing that gets overlooked. If you're working at a prestigious NYC firm, you'll spend most of the first year paying your firm $750 per month for your bar advance.

[09042014]

If I had to make a more detailed budget for a semi cost conscious, but not homelss person in DC big law.

Rent: 2100. Sorry, you aren't going to live in the ghetto unless you have to.

Utilities: 300

Commuting costs: 100

Weekday Lunch: 250

Ordering in 2 times a week: 250 ~= 60 x 4.3

1 Dinner out a week = 125 ~= 30 x 4.3

1 bar trip = 150 ~= 35 x 4.3

Groceries = 200

Misc. shopping (paper towels, razor blades) = 50

Furniture = 200

Electronics = 100

Medical/Dental = 50

gromming = 50

Clothing = 200-400

Fun activities = 100

Hobbies = 50

Laundry dry cleaning = 30

Vacation = 170 ( 3 flights per year and 10 days in a hotel ~ 2k per year)

Healthcare = 200

= 4575 a month.

Monthly income 8100

So we are talking 3500 a month. That's going to be a pretty tight budget.

[XxSpyKEx]

If I had to make a more detailed budget for a semi cost conscious, but not homelss person in DC big law.

Rent: 2100. Sorry, you aren't going to live in the ghetto unless you have to.

Utilities: 300

Commuting costs: 100

Weekday Lunch: 250

Ordering in 2 times a week: 250 ~= 60 x 4.3

1 Dinner out a week = 125 ~= 30 x 4.3

1 bar trip = 150 ~= 35 x 4.3

Groceries = 200

Misc. shopping (paper towels, razor blades) = 50

Furniture = 200

Electronics = 100

Medical/Dental = 50

gromming = 50

Clothing = 200-400

Fun activities = 100

Hobbies = 50

Laundry dry cleaning = 30

Vacation = 170 ( 3 flights per year and 10 days in a hotel ~ 2k per year)

Healthcare = 200

= 4575 a month.

Monthly income 8100

So we are talking 3500 a month. That's going to be a pretty tight budget.

$2400 per month for an apartment with utilities is not semi cost-conscious. It's probably about right for 2 people (e.g. a couple) sharing a 1 bedroom apartment, but not for 1 person. A studio or living in the burbs, but within a half hour commute via metro, would cut $1k /month. $825 /month is a really large food/eating budget. I think $500 /month is pretty reasonable factoring in a good amount of eating out (not to mention it would allow you to live longer than the next 10 years). Just knocking those two costs down would drop you to $3200 /month. There are definitely other places that you could save money as well (e.g. who spends $400 /month on clothes?) while not living like a homeless person.

[NYSprague]

If I had to make a more detailed budget for a semi cost conscious, but not homelss person in DC big law.

Rent: 2100. Sorry, you aren't going to live in the ghetto unless you have to.

Utilities: 300

Commuting costs: 100

Weekday Lunch: 250

Ordering in 2 times a week: 250 ~= 60 x 4.3

1 Dinner out a week = 125 ~= 30 x 4.3

1 bar trip = 150 ~= 35 x 4.3

Groceries = 200

Misc. shopping (paper towels, razor blades) = 50

Furniture = 200

Electronics = 100

Medical/Dental = 50

gromming = 50

Clothing = 200-400

Fun activities = 100

Hobbies = 50

Laundry dry cleaning = 30

Vacation = 170 ( 3 flights per year and 10 days in a hotel ~ 2k per year)

Healthcare = 200

= 4575 a month.

Monthly income 8100

So we are talking 3500 a month. That's going to be a pretty tight budget.

I've lost this argument every time I've had it. People just won't understand until they get there.
Most first years aren't going to keep wearing the same clothes for a year and they will want better stuff. And lots of other things..
Not to mention that costs go up every year but salaries haven't increased in at least 5 years.

[thesealocust]

A salad costs more than bigmac meal.

The restaurant by where my office will be in DC this fall charges $9-11 for a salad. Its not a high-end sit down place, just yuppie subs and pizzas.

Also, a lot of the cheap eating at home is carb-heavy. Rice, pasta, beans. If you get your calories mostly from lean meat, fish, and veggies, its more expensive. We eat a lot of steelhead trout and Salmon, because its healthy and you can prepare it super simply (season then put it under the broiler for 15 min). Its also like $8 per pound, and that's on sale at Costco in big packages.

Exactly. I get raped twice a week by Chopped. Somehow it's like ten bucks for a salad in a wrap.

Our cafeteria does cheap omelettes for lunch, which are extremely credited.

Ours has FREE bread and rolls.

Hello early retirement! There's one other dude who shamelessly grabs rolls and waves at the cashiers while he walks past. He and I understand each other.

[thesealocust]

Also, biglaw is a unique opportunity to tap into the time value of money: if you can pay down debt and live frugally, it becomes realistic to rage-quit your firm, the legal profession, and society in <10 years.

(<5 if you live like I do)

(RON PAUL '08)

[Old Gregg]

Dollar shave club for the blades. That budget is right in some ways and absurd in others.

[hdunlop]

I think it comes down to if you enjoy doing things that are cheap as shit. I love cooking and my other half does too and unlike me she's actually good at it. She gets a lot of catharsis out of chopping onions and other vegetables. Which concerns me sometimes, but it does save money. Anyway the point is that it's an easy and fun if really weird date night for us to roast a chicken and afterward take it apart and make stock out of the bones for chicken noodle soup.

I understand that most people aren't sociopaths and this all sounds terrible especially after working, and there are days where it sounds terrible to us too. But for those of us who feel that we make choices we do not only because they're fiscally sound but also because they're healthy or enjoyable or whatever, it's much easier to figure we'll continue to make these choices. Though I'll gladly admit that it's entirely possible we won't. It's really easy to start making real money and be all like this is awesome. Hedonic adjustment is a bitch.

[09042014]

If I had to make a more detailed budget for a semi cost conscious, but not homelss person in DC big law.

Rent: 2100. Sorry, you aren't going to live in the ghetto unless you have to.

Utilities: 300

Commuting costs: 100

Weekday Lunch: 250

Ordering in 2 times a week: 250 ~= 60 x 4.3

1 Dinner out a week = 125 ~= 30 x 4.3

1 bar trip = 150 ~= 35 x 4.3

Groceries = 200

Misc. shopping (paper towels, razor blades) = 50

Furniture = 200

Electronics = 100

Medical/Dental = 50

gromming = 50

Clothing = 200-400

Fun activities = 100

Hobbies = 50

Laundry dry cleaning = 30

Vacation = 170 ( 3 flights per year and 10 days in a hotel ~ 2k per year)

Healthcare = 200

= 4575 a month.

Monthly income 8100

So we are talking 3500 a month. That's going to be a pretty tight budget.

$2400 per month for an apartment with utilities is not semi cost-conscious. It's probably about right for 2 people (e.g. a couple) sharing a 1 bedroom apartment, but not for 1 person. A studio or living in the burbs, but within a half hour commute via metro, would cut $1k /month. $825 /month is a really large food/eating budget. I think $500 /month is pretty reasonable factoring in a good amount of eating out (not to mention it would allow you to live longer than the next 10 years). Just knocking those two costs down would drop you to $3200 /month. There are definitely other places that you could save money as well (e.g. who spends $400 /month on clothes?) while not living like a homeless person.

You aren't going to keep it much under 2k near the metro even in the burbs. Price Virginia square or crystal city. You certainly aren't going to find one with utilities for 1400. Utilities include cable and cell phone.

[El Pollito]

I think it comes down to if you enjoy doing things that are cheap as shit. I love cooking and my other half does too and unlike me she's actually good at it. She gets a lot of catharsis out of chopping onions and other vegetables. Which concerns me sometimes, but it does save money. Anyway the point is that it's an easy and fun if really weird date night for us to roast a chicken and afterward take it apart and make stock out of the bones for chicken noodle soup.

That's not weird at all. I love cooking.

[rayiner]

I think it comes down to if you enjoy doing things that are cheap as shit. I love cooking and my other half does too and unlike me she's actually good at it. She gets a lot of catharsis out of chopping onions and other vegetables. Which concerns me sometimes, but it does save money. Anyway the point is that it's an easy and fun if really weird date night for us to roast a chicken and afterward take it apart and make stock out of the bones for chicken noodle soup.

That's not weird at all. I love cooking.

I love cooking too. But the last thing I want to do after getting home at 9 pm is fire up the stove. Especially in DC, which is a swamp six months of the year.

[Old Gregg]

I think it comes down to if you enjoy doing things that are cheap as shit. I love cooking and my other half does too and unlike me she's actually good at it. She gets a lot of catharsis out of chopping onions and other vegetables. Which concerns me sometimes, but it does save money. Anyway the point is that it's an easy and fun if really weird date night for us to roast a chicken and afterward take it apart and make stock out of the bones for chicken noodle soup.

That's not weird at all. I love cooking.

I love cooking too. But the last thing I want to do after getting home at 9 pm is fire up the stove. Especially in DC, which is a swamp six months of the year.

Cook on the weekend and warm up your food during the week...

[Orlandipo]

You aren't going to keep it much under 2k near the metro even in the burbs. Price Virginia square or crystal city. You certainly aren't going to find one with utilities for 1400. Utilities include cable and cell phone.

You basically have to live in a shithole in Dunn-Loring to get under 1500, in which case your social life will always have an 80 min. metro commute attached to it or a $40 cab fare.

[rayiner]

The "you'll live live longer eating out less" shtick is silly. Nobody cooks in NYC. Are you saying they die early? A lot of the simple cheap easy to prepare meals you might cook at home really aren't all that good for you, being centered on getting most of your calories from carbs.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think it comes down to if you enjoy doing things that are cheap as shit. I love cooking and my other half does too and unlike me she's actually good at it. She gets a lot of catharsis out of chopping onions and other vegetables. Which concerns me sometimes, but it does save money. Anyway the point is that it's an easy and fun if really weird date night for us to roast a chicken and afterward take it apart and make stock out of the bones for chicken noodle soup.

That's not weird at all. I love cooking.

I love cooking too. But the last thing I want to do after getting home at 9 pm is fire up the stove. Especially in DC, which is a swamp six months of the year.

Cook on the weekend and warm up your food during the week...

See, I get how for people who really love cooking this works. And it's not weird to enjoy cooking at all. But I'd rather poke my eyes out than spend my weekend cooking for the week. That's not a good thing, but it is reality, and if I were working biglaw and had little free time and a lot of stressful work (or even now if I didn't have a spouse who likes to cook), I'd spend a lot on food, too.

[worldtraveler]

See, I get how for people who really love cooking this works. And it's not weird to enjoy cooking at all. But I'd rather poke my eyes out than spend my weekend cooking for the week. That's not a good thing, but it is reality, and if I were working biglaw and had little free time and a lot of stressful work (or even now if I didn't have a spouse who likes to cook), I'd spend a lot on food, too.

Yeah I'd rather be broke from eating at restaurants or live on granola bars than have to spend more time cooking.