How fast can you REALLY pay your loans? Forum

[El Pollito]

I mean, I get that once you're in biglaw it's harder to maintain the economies of a law student/college student/whatever. But I don't understand why on earth eating out means "$250 for dinner." I know DC's expensive, but even for 2 people, you have to be able to find good places to eat that are way cheaper than that. And are you really going to the Kennedy Center once a week?

It's really not that hard, just get a crockpot and make yourself something for the week.

[09042014]

OP here

This thread has taken a number of interesting turns and actually yielded some interesting information. As an aside to DesertFox: When I said I like to "go out and drink occasionally" i didn't mean to imply I have a strip club addiction or something. I don't need to spend 2-3k a month on food/my social life.

It doesn't take a raging strip club addiction to spend 2k a month on food, drink, and entertainment.

400 for groceries
300 for take out
300 for lunch at work
80 bucks for a NATs game
250 for dinner at a restaurant
25 bucks for a movie x2
120 - 1 date to the Kenedy center

That gets you 1500 right there and you are only eating out 1 time a week and doing 1 entertainment thing a week. Add dating, happy hours, weekend trips to NYC or back home, weddings, video games, taxis home to teh surburbs because you are too drunk, etc. etc. and 2000 isn't not unreasonable. And it's not a models and bottles lifestyle.

Everyone is right, you could live on 38k a year post tax, but you'd have to be very very diligent. That's entry level fed gov bitchwork takehome pay.

You should probably mention that you don't pay rent.

Also, 400$ on groceries is absurd, especially with the amount of money you're spending on eating out.

I pay rent, well me and my wife do. None of this is specific to me, since my wife is willing to live cheaply and pay back my student loans at a very fast rate. I'm essentially being subsidized by her income.

Though IIRC didn't you not pay stick and also live at home during law school? How much debt did you pay off an how fast. Did you pay off 5k/month your first year?

Maybe 400 is too high. But cooking for one is hard to do unless you cook something and eat it all week long.

I'd bet that 95% of big law first years are paying off less than 3k a month.

[09042014]

OP here

This thread has taken a number of interesting turns and actually yielded some interesting information. As an aside to DesertFox: When I said I like to "go out and drink occasionally" i didn't mean to imply I have a strip club addiction or something. I don't need to spend 2-3k a month on food/my social life.

It doesn't take a raging strip club addiction to spend 2k a month on food, drink, and entertainment.

400 for groceries
300 for take out
300 for lunch at work
80 bucks for a NATs game
250 for dinner at a restaurant
25 bucks for a movie x2
120 - 1 date to the Kenedy center

That gets you 1500 right there and you are only eating out 1 time a week and doing 1 entertainment thing a week. Add dating, happy hours, weekend trips to NYC or back home, weddings, video games, taxis home to teh surburbs because you are too drunk, etc. etc. and 2000 isn't not unreasonable. And it's not a models and bottles lifestyle.

Everyone is right, you could live on 38k a year post tax, but you'd have to be very very diligent. That's entry level fed gov bitchwork takehome pay.

I mean, I get that once you're in biglaw it's harder to maintain the economies of a law student/college student/whatever. But I don't understand why on earth eating out means "$250 for dinner." I know DC's expensive, but even for 2 people, you have to be able to find good places to eat that are way cheaper than that. And are you really going to the Kennedy Center once a week?

Opps that is a typo. I meant 50 for a dinner x 5 times a month. That's still high. 35-40 is more reasonable.

I've never had 250 a plate dinner.

The date is 1 per month. Replace it with whatever you want.

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP here

This thread has taken a number of interesting turns and actually yielded some interesting information. As an aside to DesertFox: When I said I like to "go out and drink occasionally" i didn't mean to imply I have a strip club addiction or something. I don't need to spend 2-3k a month on food/my social life.

It doesn't take a raging strip club addiction to spend 2k a month on food, drink, and entertainment.

400 for groceries
300 for take out
300 for lunch at work
80 bucks for a NATs game
250 for dinner at a restaurant
25 bucks for a movie x2
120 - 1 date to the Kenedy center

That gets you 1500 right there and you are only eating out 1 time a week and doing 1 entertainment thing a week. Add dating, happy hours, weekend trips to NYC or back home, weddings, video games, taxis home to teh surburbs because you are too drunk, etc. etc. and 2000 isn't not unreasonable. And it's not a models and bottles lifestyle.

Everyone is right, you could live on 38k a year post tax, but you'd have to be very very diligent. That's entry level fed gov bitchwork takehome pay.

I mean, I get that once you're in biglaw it's harder to maintain the economies of a law student/college student/whatever. But I don't understand why on earth eating out means "$250 for dinner." I know DC's expensive, but even for 2 people, you have to be able to find good places to eat that are way cheaper than that. And are you really going to the Kennedy Center once a week?

Opps that is a typo. I meant 50 for a dinner x 5 times a month. That's still high. 35-40 is more reasonable.

I've never had 250 a plate dinner.

The date is 1 per month. Replace it with whatever you want.

Ohhh, okay. That makes more sense. (And I was skimming.) I take it back.

[rayiner]

My wife ainto I easily blow through $2k per month on food and drinks, and we're parents so its not even like we go out to nice clubs or whatever. With wine, dinner for 2 is $100 bucks easy. Sometimes you want to treat your parents when you go out together. That's $200 easy. You can't get out of Costco without spending $200-300. Take out is $30 for two if you get Indian/Chinese/Thai. My wife probably spends $200/month on bourbon and whiskey.

Holidays are another unexpected expense. You can't gift like a college student anymore, or at least you feel shmucky for doing so. My parents spent a lot of money on me, so I'm not just getting my mom a card for mother's day. Even if you're not extravagant, $100 a gift and dinner out for immediate family adds up between Christmas, birthdays, valentines day, mothers and father's day.

Obviously these aren't essential expenses. But as a 0L I underestimated how hard it would be to live like a college student into my 30's. Especially since I had a good job before law school. Also, after mooching off my parents into my late 20s...

[XxSpyKEx]

OP here

This thread has taken a number of interesting turns and actually yielded some interesting information. As an aside to DesertFox: When I said I like to "go out and drink occasionally" i didn't mean to imply I have a strip club addiction or something. I don't need to spend 2-3k a month on food/my social life.

It doesn't take a raging strip club addiction to spend 2k a month on food, drink, and entertainment.

400 for groceries
300 for take out
300 for lunch at work
80 bucks for a NATs game
5x 50 = 250 for dinner at a restaurant
25 bucks for a movie x2
120 - 1 date to the Kenedy center

That gets you 1500 right there and you are only eating out 1 time a week and doing 1 entertainment thing a week. Add dating, happy hours, weekend trips to NYC or back home, weddings, video games, taxis home to teh surburbs because you are too drunk, etc. etc. and 2000 isn't not unreasonable. And it's not a models and bottles lifestyle.

Everyone is right, you could live on 38k a year post tax, but you'd have to be very very diligent. That's entry level fed gov bitchwork takehome pay.

Well, at this rate of eating out you might as well just forbear your student loans and spend even more, because you're probably going to die within the next 10 years anyways I don't think you have be nearly as diligent or careful as you seem to think to live off of $38k /year post-tax, especially if you're living in the burbs.

My wife and I easily blow through $2k per month on food and drinks, and we're parents so its not even like we go out to nice clubs or whatever. With wine, dinner for 2 is $100 bucks easy. Sometimes you want to treat your parents when you go out together. That's $200 easy. You can't get out of Costco without spending $200-300. Take out is $30 for two if you get Indian/Chinese/Thai. My wife probably spends $200/month on bourbon and whiskey.

Holidays are another unexpected expense. You can't gift like a college student anymore, or at least you feel shmucky for doing so. My parents spent a lot of money on me, so I'm not just getting my mom a card for mother's day. Even if you're not extravagant, $100 a gift and dinner out for immediate family adds up between Christmas, birthdays, valentines day, mothers and father's day.

It's not hard to imagine how you could easily spend $10k per month on food, drinks, and entertainment. But, on the other hand, there are a lot of people who live in DC who don't spend $2k+ /month on those things.

[09042014]

GWU gives you loans for 26k COA. Over a year that's 34k. So in order to pay the 5k a month, you'd need to live exactly like a 1L at GWU to pay 5k a month.

Sure it's possible. But it's amazingly unrealistic. Trust me, I had the same stupid idea about how easy it would be to pay 60k a year. It's technically possible, but it sucks and virtually nobody does it.

I bet less than 5% of biglawyers (at least in their first two years) are paying 3k a month in DC/NYC/SF/LA.

Trust me on this, I'm paying it back faster than anyone I've ever heard of.

[09042014]

OP here

This thread has taken a number of interesting turns and actually yielded some interesting information. As an aside to DesertFox: When I said I like to "go out and drink occasionally" i didn't mean to imply I have a strip club addiction or something. I don't need to spend 2-3k a month on food/my social life.

It doesn't take a raging strip club addiction to spend 2k a month on food, drink, and entertainment.

400 for groceries
300 for take out
300 for lunch at work
80 bucks for a NATs game
5x 50 = 250 for dinner at a restaurant
25 bucks for a movie x2
120 - 1 date to the Kenedy center

That gets you 1500 right there and you are only eating out 1 time a week and doing 1 entertainment thing a week. Add dating, happy hours, weekend trips to NYC or back home, weddings, video games, taxis home to teh surburbs because you are too drunk, etc. etc. and 2000 isn't not unreasonable. And it's not a models and bottles lifestyle.

Everyone is right, you could live on 38k a year post tax, but you'd have to be very very diligent. That's entry level fed gov bitchwork takehome pay.

Well, at this rate of eating out you might as well just forbear your student loans and spend even more, because you're probably going to die within the next 10 years anyways I don't think you have be nearly as diligent or careful as you seem to think to live off of $38k /year post-tax, especially if you're living in the burbs.

My wife and I easily blow through $2k per month on food and drinks, and we're parents so its not even like we go out to nice clubs or whatever. With wine, dinner for 2 is $100 bucks easy. Sometimes you want to treat your parents when you go out together. That's $200 easy. You can't get out of Costco without spending $200-300. Take out is $30 for two if you get Indian/Chinese/Thai. My wife probably spends $200/month on bourbon and whiskey.

Holidays are another unexpected expense. You can't gift like a college student anymore, or at least you feel shmucky for doing so. My parents spent a lot of money on me, so I'm not just getting my mom a card for mother's day. Even if you're not extravagant, $100 a gift and dinner out for immediate family adds up between Christmas, birthdays, valentines day, mothers and father's day.

It's not hard to imagine how you could easily spend $10k per month on food, drinks, and entertainment. But, on the other hand, there are a lot of people who live in DC who don't spend $2k+ /month on those things.

I honestly don't know anyone in big law who doesn't eat at a restaurant 5 times a month.

[thesealocust]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

Everything leftover is for loans or savings (mostly emergency fund rather than retirement until loans are paid, but it's not 100% loans - having a cushion is comforting, and I like taking advantage of Roth/401(k) space since you can't contribute extra later even once loans are gone and salary is higher)

[09042014]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500 on non rent/utilities.

[thesealocust]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500.

I thought seriously about getting a bed the other day, because the lack of carpet is making this almost uncomfortable even for me, but I just don't think it's in the budget.

[09042014]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500.

I thought seriously about getting a bed the other day, because the lack of carpet is making this almost uncomfortable even for me, but I just don't think it's in the budget.

A TLSer in non NYC biglaw got an office couch instead of hammack.

[rayiner]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500.

He made us walk half a mile past $1.50 pizza for $1.00 pizza.

[thesealocust]

I made you walk half a mile past like $3.00 pizza for dollar pizza. AND WHAT A NICE WALK IT WAS, through all the smelly streets and herds of drunk NYU students.

YOU'RE WELCOME.

[Old Gregg]

GWU gives you loans for 26k COA. Over a year that's 34k. So in order to pay the 5k a month, you'd need to live exactly like a 1L at GWU to pay 5k a month.

Sure it's possible. But it's amazingly unrealistic. Trust me, I had the same stupid idea about how easy it would be to pay 60k a year. It's technically possible, but it sucks and virtually nobody does it.

I bet less than 5% of biglawyers (at least in their first two years) are paying 3k a month in DC/NYC/SF/LA.

Trust me on this, I'm paying it back faster than anyone I've ever heard of.

You should always, always caveat your statements with this.

I pay rent, well me and my wife do. None of this is specific to me, since my wife is willing to live cheaply and pay back my student loans at a very fast rate. I'm essentially being subsidized by her income.

Now on to this point:

Though IIRC didn't you not pay stick and also live at home during law school? How much debt did you pay off an how fast. Did you pay off 5k/month your first year?

It really doesn't matter how I ended up with basically no loans at the end of it all, since I'm not the one claiming that it's possible to live as "well" as you do and pay off loans at the rate you do. Both are economically incompatible, and your situation is made only allowable by your wife. It's kind of disingenuous to be arguing the point on TLS without saying that you're being subsidized.

On the flip side, even with no loans, I hover around $1,000 a month with my eating habits, and even then I eat out too much. And my city's COL is second maybe only to NYC.

I'm not saying at all that I live frugally. I have some very expensive habits (I keep nice clothes, a nice car, nice apartment) and on top of that I have no one to split living expenses with. But for my health and just as good practice, I try to keep my non-rent budget at $1,000. And I'd say I live pretty well.

As an example: I ate leftovers for lunch yesterday at work. When I got home, I put together a salad from veggies I picked up at Whole Foods, and then I got a random text to hang out somewhere. I went out and had plenty of fun. Drank a Paulaner for $5 and some tequila drink a friend bought me (and I will, of course, buy a drink for him next time), danced around, split some fries with some other dudes cuz I was feeling it. All in all spent maybe... $10 for the whole day??

No, I refuse to go to clubs where there's cover to pay, I refuse to pay for mixology cocktails, I'll only eat out if the restaurant is good. And I save enough to eat at a high end restaurant once every quarter or twice a year. I'm taking the GF to Komi next month. She doesn't demand it at all from me and it's actually a birthday surprise. But I took her there once before and it was the most amazing meal she ever had.

So yeah, I'd say I live pretty well. I don't live frugally. But I also don't live like a glutton.

And you have the enviable situation of your wife paying all your shit.

[Old Gregg]

I mean, I get that once you're in biglaw it's harder to maintain the economies of a law student/college student/whatever. But I don't understand why on earth eating out means "$250 for dinner." I know DC's expensive, but even for 2 people, you have to be able to find good places to eat that are way cheaper than that. And are you really going to the Kennedy Center once a week?

It's really not that hard, just get a crockpot and make yourself something for the week.

Holy shit this. Crockpots are the shit. I make myself some solid chicken and rice biryani and call it a day for the week. So fucking good and no restaurant is gonna beat that.

Bag of rice that'll last you a month? $10. The chicken? Maybe $10 a week.

[rayiner]

In Atlanta I made a bit over $60k. About $4k per month take home. $800 rent, $100 utilities, $500 car insurance + Payment. $1,500 on food/drinks/entertainment.

[beepboopbeep]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500 on non rent/utilities.

Did you or Ray or others advocating the reasonableness of spending $2k on food each month have jobs before law school? Ones that paid not very much money?

I hesitate to say I'll be able to do it since I suck at being frugal, but it seems like if you've lived on less before, it's easier than if you're K-JD or like worked in IB or something. Having a real paycheck feels crazy when it's the first time someone's paying you money. Not so much when you've had to budget a (small) paycheck before.

[09042014]

I'm not sure why I keep having to say this but I'm not posting my budget. But what I think the average single person in biglaw is spending.

I make some sacrifices to keep costs down. I live in the burbs, I don't have a car, my wife drives a 10 year old car, I commute 30 minutes each way, the fanciest restaurants I go to are pretty damn reasonable.

It's easy to say my example is stupid because the person goes out and drinks (I made it that way because OP said he likes to, not because I do). But I could easily point out you spend too much on cars, rent and clothes. People make all sorts of choices on what they splurge on. Vacation, dining, rent, clothes, cars, luxury items, drinking etc.etc. But hardly anyone splurges on nothing.

Even like living as a hobo (sorry Seal Holocaust), OP would miss his.

It's technically possible, but entirely unrealistic.

[rayiner]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500 on non rent/utilities.

Did you or Ray or others advocating the reasonableness of spending $2k on food each month have jobs before law school? Ones that paid not very much money?

I hesitate to say I'll be able to do it since I suck at being frugal, but it seems like if you've lived on less before, it's easier than if you're K-JD or like worked in IB or something. Having a real paycheck feels crazy when it's the first time someone's paying you money. Not so much when you've had to budget a (small) paycheck before.

I have upper middle class parents and worked as an engineer before law school. The whole point of going was to avoid budgeting a small paycheck.

I'm not advocating spending $2k on food. I'm just saying its what people do. I could cut back, but the job is stressful and living well is the best part. I tend to believe that people have a fixed eillpower budget. The willpower you spend on living cheaply is willpower you don't have to slog through a doc review at 2am.

[Old Gregg]

But I could easily point out you spend too much on cars, rent and clothes. People make all sorts of choices on what they splurge on. Vacation, dining, rent, clothes, cars, luxury items, drinking etc.etc. But hardly anyone splurges on nothing.

Feel free to point that out. It would be an absolute non-sequitur because I'm not the one saying you can pay of your loans as quickly as possible while maintaining the kind of hypothetical budget you talk about above.

And I only point out your situation because you're not even living what you're typing.

[Old Gregg]

One thing worth pointing out is that if you work so hard in big law that you really, really don't have time to make food, then you are probably working hard enough to get most if not all your dinners expensed.

[09042014]

Random Attorney Data Point: I live comically frugally and work like 20 hours per day, and oscillate between $750 and $1,250 in non-recurring expenses (basically my credit card bills - expenses after rent, loan payments, utilities, insurance, bla bla bla) per month.

That covers occasional weekend trips, benders where I refuse to let anybody else buy drinks because my salary is blood money, dollar pizza + five dollar footlongs, and a few cases of diet caffeine free pepsi + a few boxes of snickers ice cream bars per week.

You could say I live the dream.

This man literally has no bed and he spends 1250. I dare the average person to tell me they'd actually spend less than 2500 on non rent/utilities.

Did you or Ray or others advocating the reasonableness of spending $2k on food each month have jobs before law school? Ones that paid not very much money?

I hesitate to say I'll be able to do it since I suck at being frugal, but it seems like if you've lived on less before, it's easier than if you're K-JD or like worked in IB or something. Having a real paycheck feels crazy when it's the first time someone's paying you money. Not so much when you've had to budget a (small) paycheck before.

Or course you can physically live on 30k a year in DC. I'm just saying nobody who makes 160k actually does it.

We are caught up too much on food. Really my point is 2000-3000 is pretty normal for big lawyers to spend every single month in addition to rent when you factor EVERYthing in. 1500 is hard to do, you have to make sacrifices. 800 is virtually impossible (which is what OP would need).

[09042014]

But I could easily point out you spend too much on cars, rent and clothes. People make all sorts of choices on what they splurge on. Vacation, dining, rent, clothes, cars, luxury items, drinking etc.etc. But hardly anyone splurges on nothing.

Feel free to point that out. It would be an absolute non-sequitur because I'm not the one saying you can pay of your loans as quickly as possible while maintaining the kind of hypothetical budget you talk about above.

And I only point out your situation because you're not even living what you're typing.

You are arguing that 3k in monthly spending is totally outrageous. Unless you are just trying to nitpick my extremely simplistic back of the envelope math for shits and giggles.

[Old Gregg]

You are arguing that 3k in monthly spending is totally outrageous. Unless you are just trying to nitpick my extremely simplistic back of the envelope math for shits and giggles.

I'm sorry for coming down on you hard. On reflection I realize that I consciously try to reduce expenses in weird ways that I didn't understand that not everyone thinks that way.

Anyways, I think it's definitely possible to live well in DC on around $1,000 to $1,500 a month for food and entertainment, etc. DC isn't that special and doesn't really have many of the money sinks that NYC has.