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V5 preeminent corporate practice can pretty much tell you your life will never be worse and you'll never be less happy professionally or personally than working at a top tier big law firm.

If you think it matters because of your "firm culture", it really doesn't. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a partner says "can you get this done by 5 PM saturday" versus "can you please get this done by 5pm saturday? Thanks" or "get this fucking done by 5pm".. it's the same thing when it's your 6th weekend in a row where you haven't had a day off.

You may think you can "hide out" for a few years and then go "in house" but that's not nearly as easy as people say. Most people end up in house at a bank at which point you'll get paid 90k/yr in legal working 9-6 and your entire job is reviewing the banks name and address on documents with zero room for professional growth. Legal/compliance jobs are the most common exit ops for any corporate law jobs and these are basically equivalent to a graveyard.

Anyways, anyone with more specific questions? Considering quitting because everything has fallen apart since I started working haven't had time to see the inside of a gym, 5 year long gf broke up with me bc i was a zombie outside of work (i.e. I'd get home at 1 am and go straight to bed basically, maybe some days I'd watch TV for 30 mins), health deteriorating significantly (back problems, stress, diet).

Tag.

so what's next? and how much of your debt (if any) did you manage to take off?

How long have you been at the firm and what would you have done differently?

Anonymous User wrote:V5 preeminent corporate practice can pretty much tell you your life will never be worse and you'll never be less happy professionally or personally than working at a top tier big law firm.

If you think it matters because of your "firm culture", it really doesn't. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a partner says "can you get this done by 5 PM saturday" versus "can you please get this done by 5pm saturday? Thanks" or "get this fucking done by 5pm".. it's the same thing when it's your 6th weekend in a row where you haven't had a day off.

You may think you can "hide out" for a few years and then go "in house" but that's not nearly as easy as people say. Most people end up in house at a bank at which point you'll get paid 90k/yr in legal working 9-6 and your entire job is reviewing the banks name and address on documents with zero room for professional growth. Legal/compliance jobs are the most common exit ops for any corporate law jobs and these are basically equivalent to a graveyard.

Anyways, anyone with more specific questions? Considering quitting because everything has fallen apart since I started working haven't had time to see the inside of a gym, 5 year long gf broke up with me bc i was a zombie outside of work (i.e. I'd get home at 1 am and go straight to bed basically, maybe some days I'd watch TV for 30 mins), health deteriorating significantly (back problems, stress, diet).

Whether you quit or not consider talking to someone. You sound depressed, and for good reason, but seeing someone can help.

Typhoon24 wrote:so what's next? and how much of your debt (if any) did you manage to take off?

I came into biglaw with 150k debt so i was pretty lucky in that regards I guess? I managed to pay off about 20k since I've started but the longer I stay in law, the further away I am from accomplishing any of my goals.

Working in corporate law is really not very transferable.... at all. Most senior associates I talk to want to leave, but the only opportunities they see are those crappy compliance/legal jobs that are so-called "in house" and at this point why would a 4th or 5th year making 200k or so take a 50% paycut? Most of those seniors have had their personal lives wither away or their personal lives never happened because of work so there really is nothing less to salvage at this point so the quality of life improvement for them is basically meaningless.

I think the scariest thing is I'm not depressed at all... because I know its the right decision to leave and try to start accomplishing something with my life. Every year and every day I spend here is just a day wasted for the sake of a paycheck (which while good, isn't enough for me to sacrifice my future career for)

transferror wrote:How long have you been at the firm and what would you have done differently?

Literally only been here for a little over 6 months.

If I would have done it differently? In an ideal world, I wouldn't have gone to law school. Understanding most people aren't in a position to make that decision in that spot, If I had to do things differently AFTER graduating law school and before starting my law firm? Hard to say - probably never had started but there really isn't a whole lot you can do. You can "look" for other options besides biglaw but most of those opportunities for law grads are just fast-tracks to the legal/compliance graveyard.

Assuming you are in one of the larger corp practices like M&A/banking or are at S&C doing the generalist thing, if you could do it again (and stay at the same or similar firm) would you target a smaller practice group like tax/exec comp/real estate/etc?

Even if not, do you think your colleagues in those groups have a "better" QOL by any metric or is is it all the same shit in your experience?

wert3813 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:V5 preeminent corporate practice can pretty much tell you your life will never be worse and you'll never be less happy professionally or personally than working at a top tier big law firm.

If you think it matters because of your "firm culture", it really doesn't. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a partner says "can you get this done by 5 PM saturday" versus "can you please get this done by 5pm saturday? Thanks" or "get this fucking done by 5pm".. it's the same thing when it's your 6th weekend in a row where you haven't had a day off.

You may think you can "hide out" for a few years and then go "in house" but that's not nearly as easy as people say. Most people end up in house at a bank at which point you'll get paid 90k/yr in legal working 9-6 and your entire job is reviewing the banks name and address on documents with zero room for professional growth. Legal/compliance jobs are the most common exit ops for any corporate law jobs and these are basically equivalent to a graveyard.

Anyways, anyone with more specific questions? Considering quitting because everything has fallen apart since I started working haven't had time to see the inside of a gym, 5 year long gf broke up with me bc i was a zombie outside of work (i.e. I'd get home at 1 am and go straight to bed basically, maybe some days I'd watch TV for 30 mins), health deteriorating significantly (back problems, stress, diet).

Whether you quit or not consider talking to someone. You sound depressed, and for good reason, but seeing someone can help.

Yes Yes, it's his brain chemistry not his job sucking unimaginably girthy cock.

Desert Fox wrote:

wert3813 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:V5 preeminent corporate practice can pretty much tell you your life will never be worse and you'll never be less happy professionally or personally than working at a top tier big law firm.

If you think it matters because of your "firm culture", it really doesn't. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a partner says "can you get this done by 5 PM saturday" versus "can you please get this done by 5pm saturday? Thanks" or "get this fucking done by 5pm".. it's the same thing when it's your 6th weekend in a row where you haven't had a day off.

You may think you can "hide out" for a few years and then go "in house" but that's not nearly as easy as people say. Most people end up in house at a bank at which point you'll get paid 90k/yr in legal working 9-6 and your entire job is reviewing the banks name and address on documents with zero room for professional growth. Legal/compliance jobs are the most common exit ops for any corporate law jobs and these are basically equivalent to a graveyard.

Anyways, anyone with more specific questions? Considering quitting because everything has fallen apart since I started working haven't had time to see the inside of a gym, 5 year long gf broke up with me bc i was a zombie outside of work (i.e. I'd get home at 1 am and go straight to bed basically, maybe some days I'd watch TV for 30 mins), health deteriorating significantly (back problems, stress, diet).

Whether you quit or not consider talking to someone. You sound depressed, and for good reason, but seeing someone can help.

Yes Yes, it's his brain chemistry not his job sucking unimaginably girthy cock.

Even if it's 100% job-caused (perfectly likely), seeing someone can help.

Anonymous User wrote:

transferror wrote:How long have you been at the firm and what would you have done differently?

Literally only been here for a little over 6 months.

If I would have done it differently? In an ideal world, I wouldn't have gone to law school. Understanding most people aren't in a position to make that decision in that spot, If I had to do things differently AFTER graduating law school and before starting my law firm? Hard to say - probably never had started but there really isn't a whole lot you can do. You can "look" for other options besides biglaw but most of those opportunities for law grads are just fast-tracks to the legal/compliance graveyard.

Can you elaborate on the bolded selection? Were you unsure of your choice to go to law school to begin with? Or do you feel your current employment is representative of a career as an attorney and you don't enjoy it?

2014 wrote:Assuming you are in one of the larger corp practices like M&A/banking or are at S&C doing the generalist thing, if you could do it again (and stay at the same or similar firm) would you target a smaller practice group like tax/exec comp/real estate/etc?

Even if not, do you think your colleagues in those groups have a "better" QOL by any metric or is is it all the same shit in your experience?

To answer, yes am at one of the larger/premier corp practices. If I HAD to do it again, I would stay at the same firm but that's like saying if you had to choose terminal illness A or B which would you pick. The smaller practice groups generally have a "better" quality of life but you're talking at the margins and people at those practice groups don't even really have the option of going to the legal/compliance cemetery. Most of those people when they exit, either go to law firms or leave law entirely. This is for exec comp/real estate. You may think you have downtime too, but in downtime you'll get stuck on massive doc review projects (Even as a 4th year which is hilarious).

Tax is a bit different. Tax has this odd complexity at virtually every top law firm. It's oddly unique in the sense that they think they are better than all the other practice groups. I've heard for tax, you have a higher chance of making partner (think 4-5% instead of 2-3%) at your firm but exit options I don't have a huge sense of. Not sure if anyone else at big law firms can answer why this complexity exists but it seems almost universal which is odd because they arguably do the least on any deals I work on. They change the word "U.S." to "United States" in the phrase "U.S. income tax considerations" and then have a 3 hour long call about it and then e-mail you 5 times a day asking if you have pushed back on this comment.

misterjames wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

transferror wrote:How long have you been at the firm and what would you have done differently?

Literally only been here for a little over 6 months.

If I would have done it differently? In an ideal world, I wouldn't have gone to law school. Understanding most people aren't in a position to make that decision in that spot, If I had to do things differently AFTER graduating law school and before starting my law firm? Hard to say - probably never had started but there really isn't a whole lot you can do. You can "look" for other options besides biglaw but most of those opportunities for law grads are just fast-tracks to the legal/compliance graveyard.

Can you elaborate on the bolded selection? Were you unsure of your choice to go to law school to begin with? Or do you feel your current employment is representative of a career as an attorney and you don't enjoy it?

I went to law school with the idea I'd practice corporate law for a few years and then hopefully have some options about where to go from there. I thought practicing corporate law at a top law firm would give me a strong foundation to build off of and have multiple avenues for my career. I didn't have a set "career" in mind about where I'd go after doing corporate law but I was under the misguided notion that I'd have options.

Theres just nothing to enjoy about this job. Even the substantive work, when you get it, is not enjoyable. I worked before law school so I understand work is work, but at the same time when every day you go into work knowing 100% you won't enjoy a single thing about your day and your day is as long as it is, it takes a toll on you and its just not worth it.

I have trouble believing that MOST associates from V5 corporate practices end up in 90k/year compliance jobs forever. The median mid-career salary figures don't support that.

but condolences regardless.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

wert3813 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:V5 preeminent corporate practice can pretty much tell you your life will never be worse and you'll never be less happy professionally or personally than working at a top tier big law firm.

If you think it matters because of your "firm culture", it really doesn't. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a partner says "can you get this done by 5 PM saturday" versus "can you please get this done by 5pm saturday? Thanks" or "get this fucking done by 5pm".. it's the same thing when it's your 6th weekend in a row where you haven't had a day off.

You may think you can "hide out" for a few years and then go "in house" but that's not nearly as easy as people say. Most people end up in house at a bank at which point you'll get paid 90k/yr in legal working 9-6 and your entire job is reviewing the banks name and address on documents with zero room for professional growth. Legal/compliance jobs are the most common exit ops for any corporate law jobs and these are basically equivalent to a graveyard.

Anyways, anyone with more specific questions? Considering quitting because everything has fallen apart since I started working haven't had time to see the inside of a gym, 5 year long gf broke up with me bc i was a zombie outside of work (i.e. I'd get home at 1 am and go straight to bed basically, maybe some days I'd watch TV for 30 mins), health deteriorating significantly (back problems, stress, diet).

Whether you quit or not consider talking to someone. You sound depressed, and for good reason, but seeing someone can help.

Yes Yes, it's his brain chemistry not his job sucking unimaginably girthy cock.

Even if it's 100% job-caused (perfectly likely), seeing someone can help.

So much this as I (tried) to make clear in my post.

wert3813 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:
Yes Yes, it's his brain chemistry not his job sucking unimaginably girthy cock.

Even if it's 100% job-caused (perfectly likely), seeing someone can help.

So much this as I (tried) to make clear in my post.

This is akin to someone with health problems 100% caused/linked to smoking going to see a medical professional for help for his health problems. Everyone knows what is the ailment and what the cure is. It's no secret.

Thoughts on whether going litigation route would be 'better'? Either in terms of substantive exit options, QOL as a first year, overall happiness.

Thanks for this thread.

toothbrush wrote:Thoughts on whether going litigation route would be 'better'? Either in terms of substantive exit options, QOL as a first year, overall happiness.

Thanks for this thread.

Don't have a strong feel for substantive exit options. Most of my litigation friends here are just planning to go to other "lower tier" law firms in a few years once they burn out. I don't think they have much plans/aspirations outside of law so I would say that is unique to litigation.

In terms of quality of life, it's not "better", its just different. You get more long term assignments which means you can screw yourself over miserably if you put them off. That being said, most of the litigators I know generally work more consistently stable hours and for first years, the typical hours are probably 9 am till 9/9:30 PM M-F and then 12-5 Saturday/Sunday. I don't think there is as much variance but most first years I know that started with me have never left the office before 8 PM or so whereas I have more days (read: some) where I can leave at 7 but others where I am here all night.

In terms of quality of life in the work aspect, I don't think any of them really enjoy it. Fact is most big-law litigation is just big companies/banks defending document requests so you're basically writing all these documents to say why you shouldn't have to produce other documents...

Anonymous User wrote:
This is akin to someone with health problems 100% caused/linked to smoking going to see a medical professional for help for his health problems. Everyone knows what is the ailment and what the cure is. It's no secret.

No it's not. It's akin to someone who works in a coal mine taking a drug that helps with black lung. By all means quit the mine and let's not pretend that your problem is caused by 2nd hand smoke from the bar you go to on Friday nights but the idea that you shouldn't take the medicine is dumb.

This will be my last post because this is distracting from the thread, but the notion that someone who hates their job and just ended a five year relationship couldn't benefit from talking with a professional is dumb and cynical. Though, to be clear, if my post implied that I thought OP was the problem, or that his reaction to the job is unreasonable or not normal, that wasn't what I meant, but rather just concern for a fellow TLSer. That's all.

Anonymous User wrote:V5 preeminent corporate practice can pretty much tell you your life will never be worse and you'll never be less happy professionally or personally than working at a top tier big law firm.

If you think it matters because of your "firm culture", it really doesn't. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a partner says "can you get this done by 5 PM saturday" versus "can you please get this done by 5pm saturday? Thanks" or "get this fucking done by 5pm".. it's the same thing when it's your 6th weekend in a row where you haven't had a day off.

You may think you can "hide out" for a few years and then go "in house" but that's not nearly as easy as people say. Most people end up in house at a bank at which point you'll get paid 90k/yr in legal working 9-6 and your entire job is reviewing the banks name and address on documents with zero room for professional growth. Legal/compliance jobs are the most common exit ops for any corporate law jobs and these are basically equivalent to a graveyard.

Anyways, anyone with more specific questions? Considering quitting because everything has fallen apart since I started working haven't had time to see the inside of a gym, 5 year long gf broke up with me bc i was a zombie outside of work (i.e. I'd get home at 1 am and go straight to bed basically, maybe some days I'd watch TV for 30 mins), health deteriorating significantly (back problems, stress, diet).

Thanks for taking questions OP, and I hope things work out well for you in the end.

Could you give us a sense of what your ordinary work week looks like in terms of hours? When people say they pull all nighters, does that mean they literally stay in the office until the morning, and then continue working a full work-day? Also, are you able to take you work home with you in the evening instead of staying in the office? If yes: (1) is this looked down upon/can it get you in trouble; and (2) what time in the evening would you usually be comfortable going home.

Finally, if you are comfortable answering: M/A or securities?

Have you thought about getting out of NYC? You could go to a smaller firm and get by billing 160-170 hours a month in a lot of cities and I bet they'd love to interview you with the V5 pedigree, especially if you stick it out another year or so.

y3great wrote:Thanks for taking questions OP, and I hope things work out well for you in the end.

Could you give us a sense of what your ordinary work week looks like in terms of hours? When people say they pull all nighters, does that mean they literally stay in the office until the morning, and then continue working a full work-day? Also, are you able to take you work home with you in the evening instead of staying in the office? If yes: (1) is this looked down upon/can it get you in trouble; and (2) what time in the evening would you usually be comfortable going home.

Finally, if you are comfortable answering: M/A or securities?

I'm securities (though I think M/A is generally the same though maybe a tad bit more unpredictable).

Ordinary work week a lot of the times is like 9AM till about 9/10 PM 3 days a week, 1 day maybe 9AM till 7:30 PM, and 1 day 9AM till about 2 AM (you never know until about 7 PM that day though) and this is subject to extreme variability.

All nighters can depend on why you are pulling the all nighter. Sometimes you are literally up all night because you are waiting for a document from the other side and you have to review it and you don't know when they are sending it so you wait from like 8 PM and onwards and you don't know whether the document is coming at 9PM or 5 AM. Sometimes the all nighters is because you just have a shitton of work due by the morning so you're working all night.

Can you work at home? Depends. If you have a really good printer/scanner and don't mind the costs involved with printing huge number of pages and can scan documents then you're more likely able to. If you don't have this, you really can't because so often you have to mark up documents.

If you're on a deal with a senior and he is in the office for an all nighter, then the answer is you probably can't go home to work. You COULD but it might be looked down upon, I don't know - hard to say.

I feel comfortable leaving at 7 if I know nothing else is coming in or I know I don't have anything to do in the immediacy. That being said, there are countless times I have left at 7, gotten home at 7:30 and by 8:30 I've been headed back to the office.

I would just add as a Junior, your hours aren't really just your hours. You're expected to be available whenever (1) you have work to do individually, (2) whenever the senior is working on your matter and (3) whenever the partner is working on your matter. It's often times the case where you have nothing to do on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, but that is the time the Senior/Partner is working on the deal and therefore you have to make yourselves available for them at that time... and you really never know.

Anonymous User wrote:Have you thought about getting out of NYC? You could go to a smaller firm and get by billing 160-170 hours a month in a lot of cities and I bet they'd love to interview you with the V5 pedigree, especially if you stick it out another year or so.

I've contacted recruiters already actually just off the record conversations - not saying I'm formally looking for anything. The universal answer is you need about 2-3 years at a NYC firm before you are attractive to make the jump.

This thread scares the fuck out of me.

Not having time to exercise or do things I like and losing my SO sounds awful. Sorry man, hope you find something else.

If not, maybe set an end date to quit? Like, I'm gonna stay for 6 more months or 1 more year and then bail. That way at least you can pay down your debt some more. And maybe having a light at the end of the tunnel will make things a tad more bearable?

Agree you should go see someone (even if it is completely job related...drugs always help