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Been with my firm about 1/2 a year and really want a spot in what i will call practice group X, which is more of a niche group. Been my goal to practice in this area since I was a teenager, and went to law school specifically to practice it. Love the people in the group and the subject matter. The group is decent size, but more people interested than spots available. Feel like I won't get in due to lack of exposure (even though all my reviews are very good). Its like I'm not even getting a chance.

I turned down other firms with a much bigger group X practice, which may have been a mistake. So my question is what if I don't get into this group. all my "backup" groups are things that arent really done out of my particular office within my firm. Would it be possible to switch firms given that position? Maybe see if they werent able to fill all spots in their group X practices (since they are bigger at the 2 firms I turned down)?

Bump. Any grads out there wanna chime in?

people definitely lateral as first years, but it seems pretty rare so i doubt you're gonna find a lot of people with useful anecdotes.

Figured it wouldn't be first hand anecdotes. Was more talking theory I guess. I'm literally thinking about calling up the firm I could have gone to, see if they filled all spots for that group, and see if I can join up. Not like I'd be behind the curve since ive been doing a bunch of group X projects and am as well versed in the subject as any starting associate is gonna be at this point.

Anonymous User wrote:Figured it wouldn't be first hand anecdotes. Was more talking theory I guess. I'm literally thinking about calling up the firm I could have gone to, see if they filled all spots for that group, and see if I can join up. Not like I'd be behind the curve since ive been doing a bunch of group X projects and am as well versed in the subject as any starting associate is gonna be at this point.

Seems like networking within your own firm first would be a better idea. Ask one of the decision makers in the group if they have time for coffee. Let them know the extent of your internet and why. Ask what you can do to get a good look for eventually joining the group. Offer to do non-billable projects to get better up to speed and demonstrate your writing, etc.

But if that doesn't work, sure, reach out to other people at other firms that do the work you want to do.

TooOld4This wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Figured it wouldn't be first hand anecdotes. Was more talking theory I guess. I'm literally thinking about calling up the firm I could have gone to, see if they filled all spots for that group, and see if I can join up. Not like I'd be behind the curve since ive been doing a bunch of group X projects and am as well versed in the subject as any starting associate is gonna be at this point.

Seems like networking within your own firm first would be a better idea. Ask one of the decision makers in the group if they have time for coffee. Let them know the extent of your internet and why. Ask what you can do to get a good look for eventually joining the group. Offer to do non-billable projects to get better up to speed and demonstrate your writing, etc.

But if that doesn't work, sure, reach out to other people at other firms that do the work you want to do.

Actually just met with head of group x. She sympathizes of course and is def trying to find stuff for me to do. But its a numbers game. I know that even if I get some projects at this point, likely still not happening since at least one other person has way more group X exposure and experience. And that's the big frustration. Ive expressed non stop interest for months and i know every member of group X, yet when they do have something, never seems to come to me. And its not like its a reflection of poor work, since ive never worked for most of them.

Wonder what other firm would say if I call up and essentially ask for a swap there. Seems like many reasons why it wouldn't make sense for them to do that, but also many reasons why it would actually be a good idea for them.

TooOld4This wrote: Ask one of the decision makers in the group if they have time for coffee. Let them know the extent of your internet and why.

I think that depends. How extensive is your internet? What kinds of things usually make your internet get further extended?

The problem was lack of exposure to the group. Too many people interested and not enough work. Just by stroke of luck, 1 or 2 interested people got put on a fairly large case, and that kept them exposed to the group. Everyone else, myself included, had to pick up the scraps. Every assignment I did got excellent reviews, but never allowed me to break in or get more exposure.

It just seems so weird calling up a firm I turned down, saying "uh yeah, I turned you down before, but can I haz job now?" Ug, I should have just picked the other firm in the first place (though thats not to say I don't really love my current firm).

well it seems like your options are a.) keep rationalizing why you aren't getting the work you want at your current firm or b.) look elsewhere

patogordo wrote:well it seems like your options are a.) keep rationalizing why you aren't getting the work you want at your current firm or b.) look elsewhere

Def a tough choice. Shift my career goals and transition into a different practice area, or look into other opportunities to continue pursuing my goal of practicing in that specific area with another firm. I guess it can't hurt to discretely inquire from other firms with larger group X practices whether it would even be a possibility. I'd imagine I can quietly do that while still forming some roots in other practice groups at my current firm.

Is it worth mentioning to the other firm that I initially had an offer from that other firm when deciding a few years back? Here is the situation. Other firm has an office that exclusively does group X work, and that small office made me an offer. Was 99% sure at the time I wanted to do that type of work. But that 1% doubt made me think I should try a firm where I can try out everything just to be sure, but where I can still settle into group X work. Of course, I'm now sure, but I can't get into group X at my current place. Worth explaining?

I'm only a 2L, but am curious why other firms would want you as a first year. They likely have their whole first year class in tact, are already not happy at a previous firm and haven't gained any specialized skills yet. I'm not giving a value judgment, but am just pointing out what I am curious about. In this circumstance are 2L and 3L grades more important? Note: I am anonymous because I don't want my firm to think (assuming I'm outable) that I'm thinking of this sort of lateraling. I am thrilled with my current firm, but am the type of person who carries an umbrella if there's a 10% chance of rain.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm only a 2L, but am curious why other firms would want you as a first year. They likely have their whole first year class in tact, are already not happy at a previous firm and haven't gained any specialized skills yet. I'm not giving a value judgment, but am just pointing out what I am curious about. In this circumstance are 2L and 3L grades more important? Note: I am anonymous because I don't want my firm to think (assuming I'm outable) that I'm thinking of this sort of lateraling. I am thrilled with my current firm, but am the type of person who carries an umbrella if there's a 10% chance of rain.

OP here. My thought process is that, since the other firm has such a large group X practice, they didn't necessarily get as many 1st years as they would have wanted (so I can at least get in touch with them to confirm). And when a practice is that big, sometimes they can genuinely use a few more hands for low-level associate gruntwork. And its not that I am unhappy at my current firm. In fact I love the place overall and would hate to leave. As for skills, sure, I'm just getting my feet wet in group X work, no doubt about that. Though literally every aspect of my law school experience and beyond indicates and highlights my interest in group X work.

I'm just not sure how to get out of what seems like a catch 22. Seems hard to lateral away in 1st year since I don't have the group X experience yet. But in 3 years, it would be impossible to lateral into group X at another firm, since I would have 3 years experience in an unrelated area. So it seems like now or never.

It sounds like you have two choices -- either try and leave or just accept that you're not going to do Practice Area X.

Look, you're not the first and you won't be the last person to be disappointed in not getting a particular practice group. But it's not worth it to spend all of your time stressing about it. It sounds to me like your firm doesn't see you in that group and wants to see you in another group -- so you can either listen to them and see if they're right or you can try to leave. And that's it.

keg411 wrote:It sounds like you have two choices -- either try and leave or just accept that you're not going to do Practice Area X.

Look, you're not the first and you won't be the last person to be disappointed in not getting a particular practice group. But it's not worth it to spend all of your time stressing about it. It sounds to me like your firm doesn't see you in that group and wants to see you in another group -- so you can either listen to them and see if they're right or you can try to leave. And that's it.

Yup, I agree. Will definitely try and lay some roots in other areas and try to find something I enjoy. But at the same time, I'll at least call up the other firms with large group X practices and see what their thoughts would be on a possible lateral move. You are right that this situation likely happens to a lot of people, and I'm lucky to at least have a job at a good firm in the end.

Anonymous User wrote:

keg411 wrote:It sounds like you have two choices -- either try and leave or just accept that you're not going to do Practice Area X.

Look, you're not the first and you won't be the last person to be disappointed in not getting a particular practice group. But it's not worth it to spend all of your time stressing about it. It sounds to me like your firm doesn't see you in that group and wants to see you in another group -- so you can either listen to them and see if they're right or you can try to leave. And that's it.

Yup, I agree. Will definitely try and lay some roots in other areas and try to find something I enjoy. But at the same time, I'll at least call up the other firms with large group X practices and see what their thoughts would be on a possible lateral move. You are right that this situation likely happens to a lot of people, and I'm lucky to at least have a job at a good firm in the end.

I'd be a bit cautious with the bolded. practice area x seems like a pretty niche area with fewer players. The partners at the other firm are probably buddies with the partners at your firm, and may report your inquiries back to them. While attrition is common, it is still uncommon for first years, and the last thing you want is to not be able to lateral anywhere and be stuck at a firm where they've given up on you.

The partners at the other firm are probably buddies with the partners at your firm, and may report your inquiries back to them.

WTF? No.

zweitbester wrote:

The partners at the other firm are probably buddies with the partners at your firm, and may report your inquiries back to them.

WTF? No.

"Bob, I just got a call from First-year Fred at your firm, looking to jump ship. I thought you should know."
"Who?"

patogordo wrote:

zweitbester wrote:

The partners at the other firm are probably buddies with the partners at your firm, and may report your inquiries back to them.

WTF? No.

"Bob, I just got a call from First-year Fred at your firm, looking to jump ship. I thought you should know."
"Who?"

OP here. Its not as niche as I'm making it out to be. Certain of the big firms have large groups dedicated to this area (though most firms have far smaller group X practices). My firm has well over 100 people in this group worldwide, though only about 12 in my office. The other firms I'm referring to have even larger practices in this area. But the catch is that the offices in my city have many more people doing it. For example, the "firm 2" I'm talking about has about 60 people in my city in this practice area. Perhaps the top people at the various firms know each other, but I think you could say that for any practice area in a particular city.

And honestly, the practice group leader at my firm, even if actually got a douchey call like that, wouldn't be the type to shoot me down. She knows its my dream to practice in group X, and wouldn't torpedo my career for just inquiring about the opportunity.

Anonymous User wrote:Bump. Any grads out there wanna chime in?

You run the risk of coming across as an indecisive loser who couldn't hack it and who would jump ship at the first sign of adversity.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Bump. Any grads out there wanna chime in?

You run the risk of coming across as an indecisive loser who couldn't hack it and who would jump ship at the first sign of adversity.

Guess you could say I was indecisive. Was 99% sure I wanted to do group X work, but that wasn't enough at the time. And I'm sure the people I worked with at my current firm would give me references or put in a good word for me. Again, it was not a matter of not being able to hack it (even though it may seem that way). The 1 or 2 spots are going by default to the people from a year ahead who clerked. What work I got in that group I did very well, and my reviews reflect that. As for trying to overcome adversity rather than "jumping ship", I'm not sure how to do that without completely casting aside both the short and long term career goals I've been working toward for the past 8 years or so. I even went so far as to offer to move to a different office if it would allow me to be in group X. Not sure what more I can do/offer to make it happen.

As to the issue of decisiveness, keep in mind that my offers out of school were between a satellite office of firm 2 (which ONLY does group X work), and my current firm office which does everything. I was almost certain I wanted to do group X work, but felt I needed to rule out other areas, which I quickly did at my firm. Not like I was between current firm and large HQ office of firm 2, which does all kinds of law.

Biglaw Associate V20 is kind of exaggerating, IMO. As long as you have strong, credible reasons for doing the lateral that you can explain during an interview down the line (if it comes to that), no one will think twice of it.

zweitbester wrote:Biglaw Associate V20 is kind of exaggerating, IMO. As long as you have strong, credible reasons for doing the lateral that you can explain during an interview down the line (if it comes to that), no one will think twice of it.

Thats what I figured (hoped). I mean, I feel like I can make a genuine case for this if I can get a few face-to-face minutes with someone at firm 2. Lots of group X partners there from my school and who are still active in the school community, and some were even on my journal, so maybe they can give me a few minutes. I would only go the backdoor route on this one, speaking to alums, people I reach out to personally, etc., as opposed to just emailing in an application. Much easier to actually explain the situation in person or over the phone.

Anonymous User wrote:

zweitbester wrote:Biglaw Associate V20 is kind of exaggerating, IMO. As long as you have strong, credible reasons for doing the lateral that you can explain during an interview down the line (if it comes to that), no one will think twice of it.

Thats what I figured (hoped). I mean, I feel like I can make a genuine case for this if I can get a few face-to-face minutes with someone at firm 2. Lots of group X partners there from my school and who are still active in the school community, and some were even on my journal, so maybe they can give me a few minutes. I would only go the backdoor route on this one, speaking to alums, people I reach out to personally, etc., as opposed to just emailing in an application. Much easier to actually explain the situation in person or over the phone.

I'm sure you'll do fine once you get a chance to explain it to someone in person. My comment was a collection of general thoughts that I and others at my firm sometimes have when looking at resumes of junior associates who are trying to lateral early in their careers. In other words, I think you'll have more problems getting interviews than doing well in them.

You have to consider that you don't exactly have a robust skill set at this point in your career, so firms are going to compare you to people coming straight out of law school (and there are plenty of impressive people graduating from law school every year).