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Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any experiences with this? Would love to start a thread sharing hell-hole experiences.

It's war. Do what you gotta do to get by. Do good work, make your limits clear, and if they flip out, don't react.

Don't get sucked into their insanity. Get advice for dealing with them from people who seem to be coping with them okay. Don't let them get in your head. Seriously. People abandon their entire career over this shit. You can't let this person eat you alive.

I've noticed that if you come in, do well, and start getting work from their preferred partners, senior associates are apt to get very turfy. Some are super cool obviously, but not all. IMO just be kind all the time even if they're obnoxious and try to let your work talk.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any experiences with this? Would love to start a thread sharing hell-hole experiences.

It's war. Do what you gotta do to get by. Do good work, make your limits clear, and if they flip out, don't react.

How? Consider this.

I have a situation where the 5th year associate sends me a sequence of 7-10 bursty emails between 7 pm and 2 am. I try to stay on top of my work email till around 9:30 pm or so, after which I kind of shut down for the day, watch a show, hang with the spouse, do whatever. I respond to each email sometimes. Other times, I wait until the next day and attend to each email's question one by one. What's happening lately is that the associate slips in really critical instructions in email number #4, sandwiched between emails 1,2,3 and 5,6,7. And I drop the ball and don't follow that precise instruction sent at, say, 12:05 a.m. Then upon catching my mistake of not following the 12:05 a.m. instruction, this 5th year associate emails me a copy of that 12:05 a.m. email accompanied with a snarky remark like "Did you not read this?" or "Did you not think this was important?"

I am not sure how to respond to such emails. I obviously did read it, and the 6 other emails, and I obviously think every precious jewel that comes out of this individual's mouth is more important than my cardiologist's advice. It's a pretty thankless experience from a morale perspective. When I do good work, I get no response whatsoever. But the moment I make any sort of mistake, I hear about it faster than the speed of light.

I'm at the point where my debt level is manageable (less than $50K), and I could transition into something else (small law/mid law/non-law). But I'm not sure I can identify a reason why that environment would be much different.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any experiences with this? Would love to start a thread sharing hell-hole experiences.

It's war. Do what you gotta do to get by. Do good work, make your limits clear, and if they flip out, don't react.

How? Consider this.

I have a situation where the 5th year associate sends me a sequence of 7-10 bursty emails between 7 pm and 2 am. I try to stay on top of my work email till around 9:30 pm or so, after which I kind of shut down for the day, watch a show, hang with the spouse, do whatever. I respond to each email sometimes. Other times, I wait until the next day and attend to each email's question one by one. What's happening lately is that the associate slips in really critical instructions in email number #4, sandwiched between emails 1,2,3 and 5,6,7. And I drop the ball and don't follow that precise instruction sent at, say, 12:05 a.m. Then upon catching my mistake of not following the 12:05 a.m. instruction, this 5th year associate emails me a copy of that 12:05 a.m. email accompanied with a snarky remark like "Did you not read this?" or "Did you not think this was important?"

I am not sure how to respond to such emails. I obviously did read it, and the 6 other emails, and I obviously think every precious jewel that comes out of this individual's mouth is more important than my cardiologist's advice. It's a pretty thankless experience from a morale perspective. When I do good work, I get no response whatsoever. But the moment I make any sort of mistake, I hear about it faster than the speed of light.

I'm at the point where my debt level is manageable (less than $50K), and I could transition into something else (small law/mid law/non-law). But I'm not sure I can identify a reason why that environment would be much different.

You get those emails because the sender is afraid of failing and so wants your work product to save them. You're missing the point that assuming the assigning attorney has a normal human soul, you saving them is credit you can bank. They don't say thank you because now they owe you, and they don't want to make that obvious. The real scoundrels to avoid are those who ask to be bailed out yet are silent when you call in your favor.

Also, no feedback on good work is needed - keep doing it. You get feedback when you aren't doing things the right way, so pay attention and begin to,do what the person is specifically saying you're not doing well.

NotMyRealName09 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any experiences with this? Would love to start a thread sharing hell-hole experiences.

It's war. Do what you gotta do to get by. Do good work, make your limits clear, and if they flip out, don't react.

How? Consider this.

I have a situation where the 5th year associate sends me a sequence of 7-10 bursty emails between 7 pm and 2 am. I try to stay on top of my work email till around 9:30 pm or so, after which I kind of shut down for the day, watch a show, hang with the spouse, do whatever. I respond to each email sometimes. Other times, I wait until the next day and attend to each email's question one by one. What's happening lately is that the associate slips in really critical instructions in email number #4, sandwiched between emails 1,2,3 and 5,6,7. And I drop the ball and don't follow that precise instruction sent at, say, 12:05 a.m. Then upon catching my mistake of not following the 12:05 a.m. instruction, this 5th year associate emails me a copy of that 12:05 a.m. email accompanied with a snarky remark like "Did you not read this?" or "Did you not think this was important?"

I am not sure how to respond to such emails. I obviously did read it, and the 6 other emails, and I obviously think every precious jewel that comes out of this individual's mouth is more important than my cardiologist's advice. It's a pretty thankless experience from a morale perspective. When I do good work, I get no response whatsoever. But the moment I make any sort of mistake, I hear about it faster than the speed of light.

I'm at the point where my debt level is manageable (less than $50K), and I could transition into something else (small law/mid law/non-law). But I'm not sure I can identify a reason why that environment would be much different.

You get those emails because the sender is afraid of failing and so wants your work product to save them. You're missing the point that assuming the assigning attorney has a normal human soul, you saving them is credit you can bank. They don't say thank you because now they owe you, and they don't want to make that obvious. The real scoundrels to avoid are those who ask to be bailed out yet are silent when you call in your favor.

Also, no feedback on good work is needed - keep doing it. You get feedback when you aren't doing things the right way, so pay attention and begin to,do what the person is specifically saying you're not doing well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiO5szYX ... u.be&t=11s

Your first mistake is to "kind of shut down" at 9:30PM. That's generally not acceptable on a regular basis, especially if you are on notice that you're working under a "Late Worker". While it may not be the case with this particular associate, most Late Workers have families, and prefer to go offline from 7:30ish to 930ish, then come back on for a burst of activity before they go to sleep, generally b/w midnight and 1AM. Wise associates learn to recognize the signs of a Late Worker and adjust their schedule to accomodate them.

But that's a specific case, and we should speak generally here. The general rule is that, as a subordinate, your job is to make your supervisor's (in this case, a midlevel) job as easy as possible. Necessarily, that means your schedule becomes his or her schedule. I have worked with partners who are in the office by 7:30am and cranking out emails ("Early Risers"); for the duration of that project, I was there at 7:30 too. With a Late Worker, I'm working till 1AM and coming in the office at 10AM. If I have projects with both a Late Worker and an Early Riser at the same time, I'm not sleeping much for a few weeks.

You are not a special flower, you are a fungible cog in a gigantic machine. The midlevel you may be working with isn't particularly special either, but more special than you because they've survived for 4 years. Also, I can guarantee you that they're eating the same schedule shit when it comes to the partners they work under. So stop whining and do your (extremely well-paid considering that your hardship is no time to watch How I Met Your Mother) job.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any experiences with this? Would love to start a thread sharing hell-hole experiences.

It's war. Do what you gotta do to get by. Do good work, make your limits clear, and if they flip out, don't react.

How? Consider this.

I have a situation where the 5th year associate sends me a sequence of 7-10 bursty emails between 7 pm and 2 am. I try to stay on top of my work email till around 9:30 pm or so, after which I kind of shut down for the day, watch a show, hang with the spouse, do whatever. I respond to each email sometimes. Other times, I wait until the next day and attend to each email's question one by one. What's happening lately is that the associate slips in really critical instructions in email number #4, sandwiched between emails 1,2,3 and 5,6,7. And I drop the ball and don't follow that precise instruction sent at, say, 12:05 a.m. Then upon catching my mistake of not following the 12:05 a.m. instruction, this 5th year associate emails me a copy of that 12:05 a.m. email accompanied with a snarky remark like "Did you not read this?" or "Did you not think this was important?"

I am not sure how to respond to such emails. I obviously did read it, and the 6 other emails, and I obviously think every precious jewel that comes out of this individual's mouth is more important than my cardiologist's advice. It's a pretty thankless experience from a morale perspective. When I do good work, I get no response whatsoever. But the moment I make any sort of mistake, I hear about it faster than the speed of light.

I'm at the point where my debt level is manageable (less than $50K), and I could transition into something else (small law/mid law/non-law). But I'm not sure I can identify a reason why that environment would be much different.

well that's awkward, OP. bet you didn't think your supervisor would read this thread.

Anonymous User wrote:Your first mistake is to "kind of shut down" at 9:30PM. That's generally not acceptable on a regular basis, especially if you are on notice that you're working under a "Late Worker". While it may not be the case with this particular associate, most Late Workers have families, and prefer to go offline from 7:30ish to 930ish, then come back on for a burst of activity before they go to sleep, generally b/w midnight and 1AM. Wise associates learn to recognize the signs of a Late Worker and adjust their schedule to accomodate them.

But that's a specific case, and we should speak generally here. The general rule is that, as a subordinate, your job is to make your supervisor's (in this case, a midlevel) job as easy as possible. Necessarily, that means your schedule becomes his or her schedule. I have worked with partners who are in the office by 7:30am and cranking out emails ("Early Risers"); for the duration of that project, I was there at 7:30 too. With a Late Worker, I'm working till 1AM and coming in the office at 10AM. If I have projects with both a Late Worker and an Early Riser at the same time, I'm not sleeping much for a few weeks.

You are not a special flower, you are a fungible cog in a gigantic machine. The midlevel you may be working with isn't particularly special either, but more special than you because they've survived for 4 years. Also, I can guarantee you that they're eating the same schedule shit when it comes to the partners they work under. So stop whining and do your (extremely well-paid considering that your hardship is no time to watch How I Met Your Mother) job.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any experiences with this? Would love to start a thread sharing hell-hole experiences.

It's war. Do what you gotta do to get by. Do good work, make your limits clear, and if they flip out, don't react.

How? Consider this.

I have a situation where the 5th year associate sends me a sequence of 7-10 bursty emails between 7 pm and 2 am. I try to stay on top of my work email till around 9:30 pm or so, after which I kind of shut down for the day, watch a show, hang with the spouse, do whatever. I respond to each email sometimes. Other times, I wait until the next day and attend to each email's question one by one. What's happening lately is that the associate slips in really critical instructions in email number #4, sandwiched between emails 1,2,3 and 5,6,7. And I drop the ball and don't follow that precise instruction sent at, say, 12:05 a.m. Then upon catching my mistake of not following the 12:05 a.m. instruction, this 5th year associate emails me a copy of that 12:05 a.m. email accompanied with a snarky remark like "Did you not read this?" or "Did you not think this was important?"

I am not sure how to respond to such emails. I obviously did read it, and the 6 other emails, and I obviously think every precious jewel that comes out of this individual's mouth is more important than my cardiologist's advice. It's a pretty thankless experience from a morale perspective. When I do good work, I get no response whatsoever. But the moment I make any sort of mistake, I hear about it faster than the speed of light.

I'm at the point where my debt level is manageable (less than $50K), and I could transition into something else (small law/mid law/non-law). But I'm not sure I can identify a reason why that environment would be much different.

If this doesn't cause folks to reconsider taking out massive amounts of debt that they can only pay back through biglaw, I'm not sure what will.

LOL. If you think the rule of "your boss's schedule is your schedule" doesnt apply for EVERY JOB IN THE WORLD that you give a shit about succeeding in, then I don't know what to tell you.

NeedAnExit wrote: If this doesn't cause folks to reconsider taking out massive amounts of debt that they can only pay back through biglaw, I'm not sure what will.

why are you posting anon? don't you know your retarded quoting style gives you away?

I had no idea my Tyrranical Midlevel posted on TLS. Hi buddy! Thanks to you, I am in therapy now, but I just want you to know that if you want me to pay for you to go instead of me, I'm very open to it. You can even have my appointment for next Tuesday.

Ha this is awesome.

Also are "late workers" actually a totally normal thing? Is this a nyc thing? That sounds horrible. Plenty of people in my office get in by 7, but I've never once had an email come in after 9-10 pm that I'm expected to respond to.

Who are you idiots who think you should get to SLEEP?

ChardPennington wrote:Ha this is awesome.

Also are "late workers" actually a totally normal thing? Is this a nyc thing? That sounds horrible. Plenty of people in my office get in by 7, but I've never once had an email come in after 9-10 pm that I'm expected to respond to.

Even though I also haven't, I live in fear of it.

Here is the sick part. 65% of people who are sending an email at 9pm don't expect, and probably don't even want you do anything about it til the next morning. But you can't tell them from the Devil Wears Jos a Bank Mid-level in this thread.

Desert Fox wrote:Here is the sick part. 65% of people who are sending an email at 9pm don't expect, and probably don't even want you do anything about it til the next morning. But you can't tell them from the Devil Wears Jos a Bank Mid-level in this thread.

Eh I mean it doesn't take long to tell who is who. But when you are staffed under the Devil in Jos A Bank, you're afraid to even go to sleep at night. He might need you to change some dates in a form notice. At ANY TIME.

IAFG wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:Here is the sick part. 65% of people who are sending an email at 9pm don't expect, and probably don't even want you do anything about it til the next morning. But you can't tell them from the Devil Wears Jos a Bank Mid-level in this thread.

Eh I mean it doesn't take long to tell who is who. But when you are staffed under the Devil in Jos A Bank, you're afraid to even go to sleep at night. He might need you to change some dates in a form notice. At ANY TIME.

I have a friend who recounted a hilarious story of a partner at a firm *he used to work at a year ago* called him at 2 am to ask him questions about where certain information could be found.

Repeat - this was a dude who USED to work at the law firm.

IAFG wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:Here is the sick part. 65% of people who are sending an email at 9pm don't expect, and probably don't even want you do anything about it til the next morning. But you can't tell them from the Devil Wears Jos a Bank Mid-level in this thread.

Eh I mean it doesn't take long to tell who is who. But when you are staffed under the Devil in Jos A Bank, you're afraid to even go to sleep at night. He might need you to change some dates in a form notice. At ANY TIME.

I thought we already established that lowly junior associates aren't allowed to sleep?

I lold hard at devil wears Joseph a bank